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Re: Why buy a Prius? There's a better-driving PZEV alternat

Has anyone in the Prius crowd figured out the eventual cost of replacing the battery pack or the two electric motors/generators? How about the environmental impact of the spent batteries (which, I assume, will become a greater factor as hybrid technology becomes more commonplace)?
I compared the Focus & Prius before I bought a Prius. I found that it costs ~$3500 to replace the hybrid battery today. Granted, the Prius has "dealer repair" written all over it, complete w/ dealer parts, since so much of the Prius is like no other car.

I chose Prius because: 1, spent NiMH batteries are more recyclable than lower gas milage. Environmental concern was my main reason to spend the additional money.
...2, In recent years, Toyota is probably the most reliable car on the road. The parts may be more expensive, but it's less likely to need repair...3, by the time I need to replace the battery (after 8 yr warrantee), NiMH hybrid batteries WILL be common place, since more hybrids are coming.
Since nothing is gauranteed in life, I chose to "bet" on the economy, practicality, and environmental impact of the Prius over lower priced cars, spread over the life of the car.

I think Focus is a good car, I hope it works well for you. As for me, I'd buy my Prius again.
 

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Re: Why buy a Prius? There's a better-driving PZEV alternat

04preius said:
...3, by the time I need to replace the battery (after 8 yr warrantee), NiMH hybrid batteries WILL be common place, since more hybrids are coming.
After the 8-year warranty, Toyota will no longer guarantee the battery, but that does not mean you'll need to replace it. There are good indications that the battery will last the life of the car.

Of course we are taking a chance with such a new technology, but with Toyota it's a pretty safe bet.

And if Toyota comes out with the next generation Prius in six years, I'll be selling mine while there are still two years left on the hybrid warranty.
 
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Hi Mrv:
mrv said:
Is the PZEV Focus available nationwide yet? Most PZEVs don't see outside of CA (even for those of us in states that use the CA emissions standards, like MA where I am). The Prius sold in CA is the same vehicle available in the rest of the continental US.
Other PZEVs:
http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/ccvl/2004ccvl.htm
___The Ford Focus PZEV HW (engine, emission controls, vapor emission controls, and engine performance) is exactly the same irregardless if it were purchased in California, Massachusetts, Illinois, or Idaho to name just a few of the 50 states. As long as its the 2.3 L that is but the emission warranty is dropped back to the std. 8 Yr./80,000 in non-clean fuel states vs. if purchased in the clean fuel states w/ a 15 Yr./150,000 mile emissions warranty. It does not carry a PZEV rating outside the clean fuel states even though it is PZEV qualified. In other words, it is the exact same PZEV but without the longer emission warranty. This may have changed just recently as Ford may be offering a 5 Yr./100,000 bumper to bumper instead of the old stand by, 3 Yr. /36,000 mile bumper to bumper and 5 Yr./100,000 mile std. power train warranty on new vehicle purchases? The non-clean states emissions warranty is probably still only covered under the 8 Yr/80,000 miler however

http://caranddriver.com/article.asp?sec ... le_id=7872

___I should add here that by 2006, all US states will be required to sell only Low Sulfur fuel which will make every car with a recently developed CAT that much cleaner as far as general tailpipe emissions are concerned.

___As for the 2.3 L PZEV based Ford Focus emission cleanliness, it is every bit as clean as the 04 Prius in every respect except for GHGs (CO2 emissions) given the Prius real world 20 mpg advantage. In other words, in the non-clean fuel states, the 04 Prius is just as dirty as the 2.3 L PZEV based Ford Focus w/ either Auto or a Stick (dirty is kind of an interesting term given how clean both are ;)). This equates to 9/10 rating for each in the non-clean fuel states and 10/10 in clean fuel states according to the EPA.

http://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/E-TOYOTA-Prius-04.htm

http://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/E-FORD-Focus-04.htm

mrv said:
My recollection is that the Focus has been hit with numerous recalls (just like other Fords that have been in my family). There has been only ONE recall on any Prius, and that was for ~1,750 early 2001s (power steering rack).

My 2001 Prius has been the most reliable car I've owned. So much so, my second car (my husband's car) is a 2004 Prius.
___As far as reliability is concerned, according to the auto mags, CRs readership, and (2) different Ford dealership techs that I have spoken with personally, Ford has improved the Focus to the point that it is now receiving red circles in many of the Consumer Reports Car Guide ranking/rating system and the techs are beginning to report seeing the latest (2) MYs very infrequently unlike in the past.

___The Ford Focus is also fast and very fun to drive given the excellent 2.3 Ls HP, torque, suspension, and brake HW matched to make it a very lively automobile. In the 5 Dr. format, it is actually larger then the 04 Prius! The ZX5 5-Door Focus PZEV Premium in particular can be purchased for as little as $10,000 less in terms of initial costs (not only w/ the available rebates but I have access to the X-Plan for another $1,000 off ;)) while extremely well equipped including all of the following as either std. or option(s) vs. the 04 Prius. Here are a few of the more basic yet included std. amenities first:
  • A/C[/*:m:3pkpor7z]
  • Cruise[/*:m:3pkpor7z]
  • Powered windows w/ one-touch down[/*:m:3pkpor7z]
  • Powered locks[/*:m:3pkpor7z]
  • Powered mirrors[/*:m:3pkpor7z]
  • Intermittent wipers[/*:m:3pkpor7z]
  • Full range of analog gauges including tach[/*:m:3pkpor7z]
  • Leather wrapped steering wheel[/*:m:3pkpor7z]
  • Tilt and Telescopic steering wheel[/*:m:3pkpor7z]
  • Height adjustable front seats[/*:m:3pkpor7z]
  • Keyless entry w/ lock/unlock and panic[/*:m:3pkpor7z]
  • Passive security coded keys[/*:m:3pkpor7z]
  • 16 5-spoke Aluminum wheels[/*:m:3pkpor7z]
  • Powered Sunroof[/*:m:3pkpor7z]
  • A number of electrical schemes for battery rundown protection and power to accessories and amenities for a given period after key shut off[/*:m:3pkpor7z]
  • 60 W AM/FM/CD w/ MP3 player[/*:m:3pkpor7z]
  • Solar Tinted Glass[/*:m:3pkpor7z]
  • 5 mph bumpers F&R[/*:m:3pkpor7z]
  • Std. Floor mats[/*:m:3pkpor7z]
  • Fog lamps[/*:m:3pkpor7z]
___And the non-standard options I am interested in
  • Leather seating surfaces[/*:m:3pkpor7z]
  • Heated front seats[/*:m:3pkpor7z]
  • Heated mirrors[/*:m:3pkpor7z]
  • Perimeter Alarm[/*:m:3pkpor7z]
  • ABS[/*:m:3pkpor7z]
  • Auto[/*:m:3pkpor7z]
  • Side Air Bags[/*:m:3pkpor7z]
___All of the above for a touch under $16,000 with the additional options listed is to great a deal to pass up in my particular circumstance.

___The two or three items it doesnt have that I would be interested in however is that its not a Hybrid so it doesnt receive nearly the mileage of the 04 Prius and it does not have Side curtains or VSC. For whatever reason, Ford removed traction control on the Focus ZX5 Premium because of the PZEV equipped 2.3 L engine and I have not found the reason as to why just yet?

___As you can tell, I am very interested in the 2004 5-Dr PZEV based Ford Focus as a replacement for my relatively new ULEV rated 03 Toyota Corolla LE w/ Auto. The Toyota just had a new CAT installed (under warranty thank god given the $1,100 cost) at just 57,000 miles and the few issues I am having with it are starting to overwhelm me for the most gentle treatment an automobile could have ever received from just about anyone Maybe in 2005 if Ford adds traction control back into the mix and hopefully side curtains, I might just purchase a Ford Focus ZX-5 PZEV as my local and family hauling driver

___I know this is a Prius enthusiast forum and that Frzivko went way overboard with his initial and follow up commentary I hope I did not go overboard with mine as I have been known to do in other more active Hybrid forums ;)

___Good Luck to you all.

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___[email:3pkpor7z][email protected][/email:3pkpor7z]
 
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Hi Jflowerus:

___Fords in my family have been as reliable or more so then the Toyotas and Honda s I have owned The Mercury Sable went 160 + thousand with a water pump and an initial set of rotors + some idle glitches late in life. The Toyota Previa went 170,000 w/ a water pump and something else that I dont remember right now? The 92 Honda Accord was a bit more problematic w/ broken timing belt at just 45,000 miles after replacement, electrical glitches, and engine starting problems. It too left us in the 160,000 mile range. The 03 Corolla is not what I call an entirely well built machine given the new CAT a few weeks ago and the interior drop panels coming off their hinges (> $250.00 to replace!). There was a pull to the left after delivery that was taken care of under warranty as well We will see how the Ford Ranger XLT does given it uses the same very powerful 2.3 albeit without the PZEV HW as the PZEV based Ford Focus :( I only wish Hybrids (all of them to date) had this kind of pull out of the hole and this is just a rather miserly 4 banger and I also wish all automobiles had PZEV HW installed for an overall cleaner air in our entire country!

___This link might give you some perspective in terms of pricing and such? Have you purchased a Ford Lately.

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___[email:26e9jvyv][email protected][/email:26e9jvyv]
 

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jflowerus said:
Xcel, the problem is, it's still a Ford!
Oh... you could use that excuse for something like a Yugo, but just because it is a Ford doesn't mean it is going to a bad car. :p Others in my family have had Fords and they've been great cars. At least Ford it trying. ;)
 

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Re: Why buy a Prius? There's a better-driving PZEV alternat

Why?

Cause I am 6'4" and I fit. Tried the civic hybrid, its tight but I fit but no one can get in the backseat of the civic when I drive.

I hear you on the $ vs mileage vs competition but what about American car reliability? I'd buy an American truck but that's it. Accord 4 dr. V6 #1, Camry #2.

I am all for buying American but not when American car companies burn me as they have in the past.

jim
 

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Your subjective use of semantics is simply clever obfuscation.

moocatdog,

you give him too much credit, you really think it was "clever"? obvious yes.

jim
 

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Hoagie, I'm embarrassed to admit that I owned 4 Fords before I realised how problem prone they are.

My experience with the re-call king of cars, my 2001 Focus was the straw that broke the camel's back! NO MORE FORDS!

I am on my 8th Toyota now and have had nothing but good experiences with them.

The original Prius is probably one of the biggest leaps in auto technology ever and Toyota got it right the first time.
I can just imagine what would have happened if Ford had produced the Prius?

How many decades is it now 4 or is it 5 decades that Ford is still trying to figure out how to make a car without an exploding gas tank?

I'll stick with Toyota, a company that shows a responsibility towards it's customers.
 
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Hi Jflowerus:

___I cannot say that I blame you in the least for your choice of manufacturer as I did the same when I purchased the Corolla. Engine, suspension, interior noise, and looks are excellent for my uses but it is the little things that are starting to annoy me in terms of seating comfort, junk radio, and $250.00 as a replacement cost for that cheap plastic box. It is just a simple plastic box!

___When you say that Toyota shows responsibility towards its customers, that is probably correct but they may not be doing so in the best interest of the environment. The EPAs web site is currently down for maintenance but when it comes back, take a look at the EPAs Green Vehicle guide. The Sequoia is of particular interest. It was the third worse polluting consumer vehicle on the road today far surpassing the amount of pollution effluent coming from the Suburban/Yukon XL (1 or 2/10 IIRC?), the Excursion (2 or 3/10 IIRC?), and even the Hummer H2 (1 or 2/10 IIRC?) by some distance in terms of emissions and had the lowest rating at 0/10 I believe. I am also a littler perturbed in that the Toyota Echo is only a LEV based automobile. It costs so little to do so much more on the emission front and Toyota with the PZEV based Prius on the one hand has the embarrassment called the Sequoia on the other.

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___[email:2ncelb3i][email protected][/email:2ncelb3i]
 

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Xcel, Diversionary arguments do not change the fact that Ford cares about the bottom line and does not give a hoot about it's customers wellfare!

Here is a quote from an article in SAFETY ALERT

"The only major cars which still have the "exploding gas tank" design are the Ford Mustang and the Panther. This is the same problem that Ford had with the Ford Pinto -- only more people have been killed in the CVPI than the Pinto.
Another design flaw is the sharp hex bolt located on the rear axle. In a high speed collision, it is the bolt that can puncture the gas tank, which leads to the tank exploding.
Ford also has the technology to prevent the exploding gas tanks such as installing a bladder or shield between the gas tank and the rear axle. Neither the redesign nor modifications have taken place primarily because Ford does not want to take the money out of their profits."

Ford has known about this problem since the 1960s and
It is estimated that up to 900 people have been seriously burned or killed due to just this one design flaw! And you think Ford cares about the environment? Ha!
 

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Anybody can make a mistake. But Ford's refusal to recall the Pinto after they realized it would explode and kill people, convinced me never to by a Ford as long as I live.

Ford calculates how much a court will fine them if a design flaw in their car kills you, and if that amount is less than the cost of a recall, they'll dance on your grave.
 

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Everyone shouldn't get so worked up about responding to the Focus buyer. The Focus buyer's numbers are wrong(no focus gets to 60 in 7 seconds) and he/she obviously has a very shallow understanding of the way the Prius works. The battery never becomes depleted, the engine and brakes recharge it.
You can buy something very cheap and marvel at what an apparent good deal it is, but don't be deceived. You can drive an American car all you want, but the bottom line is when quality or safety matters, you lose. Eleven safety recalls on the Focus in the last 3 years should raise a few eye-brows(although the average American consumer seems to know nothing about quality or safety). The Big Three are notorious for turning their backs on vehicle quality and safety issues and will pay enormous sums of money to buy lobbyists to combat laws or find lawyers to ward off lawsuits, but they won't just fix the damn vehicle. The F-150 had 13 safety recalls and was pulverized in the IIHS offset- Ford then said, "It's too hard to build a safe truck."... Look at the Tundra. The Explorer 's tires blew up and the thing rolled over killing hundreds of people, and Ford points the finger at Firestone although the stupid thing shouldn't even have killed the passengers in the first place. Put a wide stance and build an actual roof that can withstand force. You can drive the Ford all you want, but don't come home blubbering when Ford shrugs their shoulders and looks away when you have a major problem or the car gets messed up in an accident.
 

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Why,Why,Why Buy da Prius?

O.K. It's the old delima, but with one twist. The Prius just ain't yer usual car of comparison.I own the 04 Prius and yes, I had to wait 3 months but
well worth the wait. MOTOR TREND must think well of the hybrid after con-
sidering several quality cars in the running for the covited award "CAR OF
THE YEAR". This is an amazing car. The Focus has merit but when it comes to quality. Its' no contest. Much like the Camery, the Prius is again Toyota's Flagship on customer satisfaction. Resale of both cars is a no brainer. Just check the want ads. To close I just want to say. I'm having
fun again showing off this car of the future that has arrived today (well
maybe three months later). J.C.
 

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Personal experience - Ford builds a terrible automobile unless you're interested in trucks - then it's just mediocre. Design and reliability problems make Ford products less desirable.

Some would say that if it weren't for the good hearted American buying public, Ford would go under in less than a year - in other words, Ford only survives because we put up with their inferior product because it is American made.
 

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Re: Why buy a Prius? There's a better-driving PZEV alternat

"I can also merge onto the freeway with greater security, as my car will reach 60 mph in the mid-7s. "

I got an V-6 3Liter accord coupe with 200 hp and 200 ft-lb of torque and it does 0-60 in 7.9 sec. You are smoking something bad if you think you can do 0-60mph in mid 7s with the focus.
 

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Re: Why buy a Prius? There's a better-driving PZEV alternat

johnto2 said:
"I can also merge onto the freeway with greater security, as my car will reach 60 mph in the mid-7s. "

I got an V-6 3Liter accord coupe with 200 hp and 200 ft-lb of torque and it does 0-60 in 7.9 sec. You are smoking something bad if you think you can do 0-60mph in mid 7s with the focus.
He didn't write *zero* to 60. He was discussing merging, so he meant that the Focus can go from 30 (ramp speed) to 60 in about seven seconds :_>
 

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It's interesting how the orriginator of this thread has dissapeared!!

Here are my thoughts:

1) You don't replace the battery, you replace bad cells. This costs less!
2) Lack of power? I have a gas motor AND an electric motor when I put the peddle to the metal. I see no lack of power in my car!
3) Over the life of the car, 30 MPG vs. 50? Please, there is a savings here! Less fuel consumed means less waste in the air!
4) For a car that has been out since 2001 (in the US), if it's hard to determine the cost to replace a battery (which I've said above you don't need to do), that's because it hasn't been an issue.

My first car was a Ford Mustang. Had to by a special Ford wrench to adjust the timing. Had to buy a special Ford hose (different diameters on each end) to fix a coolent leak. The wrench costs $10.00 and the 10 inch hose a wopping $20.00. I was happy to pay someone to take it off my hands.
 

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Cheers to anyone getting a PZEV, no matter what maker. It's all about choice isn't it? I really dig my Prius for a number of reasons aside from the emission quality, but it's still cool to see other manufacturers catching on to more environmentally friendly vehicles. The more choices people have means that there will be more on the road- and that means we all win..

Plus, I've heard with Fords, they now have heated read bumpers so your hands stay warm when you're pushing them in the Winter. :wink:

cheers,
M.Scopes
 
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