Toyota Prius Forum banner

1 - 20 of 64 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
105 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
IMHO a full hybrid = a 100% EV car + gasoline engine. It uses nothing but a battery for your daily drive to work.

[EDIT - An example of a full hybrid is the RAV4 EV, with a gasoline engine attached, to provide unlimited range:
- You use the electric motor for your daily commute
- And you use the gasoline engine for weekend trips to the beach (or any other trip greater than 100 miles)]



That means all of today's hybrids are "mild" hybrids.



(Aside - And the Chevy "turn-off" pickup truck is NOT a hybrid. It's just an automatic ignition. Nothing special about that.)


troy
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,233 Posts
Yeah but isn't that just an EV then?

A mild hybrid is a series hybrid while a full hybrid is a parallel hybrid system.

Both the Prius and Escape Hybrid are hybrid hybrids. i.e. best of both series and parallel systems.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
105 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Tideland Prius said:
Yeah but isn't that just an EV then?
No, because EVs don't come with gasoline engines to recharge the battery.



An example of a full hybrid is the RAV4 EV, with a gasoline engine attached, to provide unlimited range:
- You use the electric motor for your daily commute
- And you use the gasoline engine for weekend trips to the beach (or any other trip greater than 100 miles)

troy
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
319 Posts
As Tideland Prius said, a "Full Hybrid" is a parallel system, which allows the gas engine to be turned off during crusing speeds up to 42mph.

A Series Hybrid only allows the gas engine to turn off when it is stopped, so when it is moving the enging is ON. This is also known as an "Assist Hybrid" because the electric motor only assists, it doesn't soley propel the car as our "Full Hyrbids" do.

Actually the electric motor in an EV will be the generator as the car is slowing down, and the RAV4 EV doesn't have a gas engine.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
105 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Brian said:
As Tideland Prius said, a "Full Hybrid" is a parallel system, which allows the gas engine to be turned off during crusing speeds up to 42mph.
IMHO the Prius is NOT a full hybrid. It can only travel 1 mile in EV mode. Prius is "mild" at best.



the RAV4 EV doesn't have a gas engine.
No true, but if it's modified to carry a gasoline engine, then it would be a full hybrid. A.C. Propulsion built that vehicle.

There's also another company (evworld?) that built a prototype car, that operates the first 100 miles on battery, and then switches over to diesel engine at mile 101 to provide electricity for the motor.

That too is a full hybrid.

troy
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,560 Posts
I thought Full Hybrid would mean that the ICE is used exclusively to generate electricity, not momentum. All momentum would be generated by the electric motors.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
420 Posts
ElectricTroy said:
Brian said:
As Tideland Prius said, a "Full Hybrid" is a parallel system, which allows the gas engine to be turned off during crusing speeds up to 42mph.
IMHO the Prius is NOT a full hybrid. It can only travel 1 mile in EV mode. Prius is "mild" at best.
Then how do you define Honda's assist system (try saying the last two words fast after a few mojitos!) Is it a "milder" hybrid?

In order to be useful, a definition must be capable of making all necessary distinctions. Lumping Toyota and Honda together obscures more than it clarifies.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,285 Posts
"No true, but if it's modified to carry a gasoline engine, then it would be a full hybrid"

No, that would merely make it an EV with a built-in battery charger!
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
888 Posts
There are currently 3 recognized hybrid systems: series, parallel and series-parallel. Describing hybrids as weak or full (or strong) is a very gross way of describing the implementation of the technology or its structure in an individual vehicle.

Structurally, the Honda hybrids are all parallel hybrids. That is sufficient to a hybrid knowledgeable individual to describe the hybrid implementation in that that vehicle. The Toyota hybrid implementation is series-parallel. Again, that designation to the hybrid knowledgeable individual should be enough to describe the implementation.

Both hybrid implementations have strengths and weaknesses. The folks here on this board are going to be fond of the Toyota implementation, because that is what they drive. I’m sure there are plenty of engineers out there that can also come up with their own highly technical list of strengths and weaknesses for both systems.

Labeling a hybrid system as strong or weak doesn’t describe how it works, how it is configured or how well it performs. I however do not agree with your conclusion that all current hybrids are weak. In fact, what you want out of an EV Rav4 would be a series hybrid. An ICE powering a generator which then directs power to an electric motor directly or into a storage battery for the electric motor to use is the classic definition of a series hybrid.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
515 Posts
ElectricTroy said:
It can only travel 1 mile in EV mode. Prius is "mild" at best.
Since EV mode isn't actually available without voiding the warranty, that comment really only serves to mislead. STEALTH is available for up to 3 miles.

But I do admit that all these threads trying to define labels are rather amusing. They are desperate attempts to level the playing field, doing everything that can be done to avoid drawing attention to actual specifications.

Why not discuss motors or operating voltage or battery-pack capacity? What purpose does the label serve?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,233 Posts
In that case, you just mean that you want a Prius or other full hybrids to have more powerful battery packs for longer range, that's all. In your explanation, that would make the new Prius a full-er hybrid than the Classic or Original since it has longer EV range than either of the two.

If you're looking for a RAV4EV with a gas engine or as KTPhil said, a built-in battery charger, then that would be a series hybrid or mild hybrid where the engine powers the battery which powers the motor to turn the wheels.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,397 Posts
Doesn't all this miss the point. The hybrid technology used in the application of a Prius, for example, is to reduce fuel consumption/emissions. What good would it be if you had a car that only used the electric motor to power the wheels and the gas engine to charge the battery, if the overall gas mileage was worse. How good does the Prius do in fuel economy? I believe it has the best gas mileage available for a car of its size and carrying capacity.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
888 Posts
I was mistaken earlier about series and parallel hybrids. I had them switched. I edited my earlier post.

This site, specifically this page, is one of the better resources for explaining series, parallel and series-parallel hybrids.

http://www.toyota.co.jp/en/tech/environment/hsd/02.html
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,000 Posts
john1701a said:
ElectricTroy said:
It can only travel 1 mile in EV mode. Prius is "mild" at best.
Since EV mode isn't actually available without voiding the warranty, that comment really only serves to mislead. STEALTH is available for up to 3 miles.

But I do admit that all these threads trying to define labels are rather amusing. They are desperate attempts to level the playing field, doing everything that can be done to avoid drawing attention to actual specifications.

Why not discuss motors or operating voltage or battery-pack capacity? What purpose does the label serve?
Well, the EV mod is standard outside North America...

And 'mild' versus 'full' is rather pointless.

In my mind, the Honda-style system is really just 'electric assist', the Toyota-style system is 'hybrid', and what ElectricTroy is describing is 'EV with onboard generator'. Hybrid means a comibnation. EV with gas generator isn't a combination. Honda's electric assist isn't a combination. I would actually be willing to list both of those as 'mild' hybrids, since they both use large parts of one technology (Gas in the Honda, EV in ET's example,) with a small assist from the other. I consider Toyota's melding of the two to be a 'full' hybrid.

Note that I'm not saying that a gas-assisted EV is BAD. I think it's better than a 'full' hybrid, I'm just saying it shouldn't be called a hybrid.

ETroy is just promoting EV while denigrating the Prius at the same time. He's a troll. Ignore him.

Edit: P.S. I see that while the 2006 Honda Civic Hybrid will use the same basic technology as the current one, it will be more powerful, and actually capable of turning the ICE off during powered driving, making it a 'full' hybrid. (Looks like it's still physically a 'series' hybrid, but it can shut down the cylinders. This means that when operating on electric power alone, the electric motor also spins the ICE, although without gas.)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,233 Posts
The new HCH is still a mild (series) hybrid. It can't run on EV alone. Yes, they say the engine shuts off at low speed but I suspect it's more like shutting it off while coasting.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,000 Posts
Their press release does actually say that it will be powered by electric alone. Again, I think it means that electric spins the ICE while driving, so it probably has extremely short range on electric alone.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
105 Posts
Discussion Starter · #19 ·
john1701a said:
all these threads trying to define labels are rather amusing. They are desperate attempts to level the playing field
I drive an insight that gets 90+ mpg. I really don't feel a need to level the playing field, because I'm perfectly happy with my 90+ results. Strike one for John.

coloradospringsprius said:
ElectricTroy said:
IMHO the Prius is NOT a full hybrid. It can only travel 1 mile in EV mode. Prius is "mild" at best.
Then how do you define Honda's assist system (try saying the last two words fast after a few mojitos!) Is it a "milder" hybrid?
They are both mild hybrids..... just that Toyota has a NEV capability. So:
Honda = mild hybrid
Toyota = mild hybrid + NEV




jeromep said:
In fact, what you want out of an EV Rav4 would be a series hybrid. An ICE powering a generator which then directs power to an electric motor directly, or into a storage battery, for the electric motor to use is the classic definition of a series hybrid.
At least there's one person who understands. IMHO this type of hybrid is superior to the Prius (or honda), because it allows a person to use the clean(er) sources like the grid or hydro or solar, for ~99% of their miles.

The Prius is a nice car. I really like the new styling. Sexy.

But it could be soooooo much better if it had true ~100 mile EV-capability for daily commutes.

troy
 
1 - 20 of 64 Posts
Top