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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
[The purpose of this thread was to try to assign "generations" to each type of hybrid. i.e. The Japanese Prius is generation 1, v1.0 and the American Prius is generation 1, version 1.1... et cetera.]

EDIT: I assigned the version numbers the same way that numbers are assigned to software. Minor changes increment the fractional part. Major changes increment the whole number. ----- 1.1-to-2.0 = Toyota made a major re-design of betweeen the Old Prius & New Prius. ----- 1.0-to-1.1 = Honda made minor changes (10hp increased to 14hp motor).



TOYOTA:
v 1.0 = Japanese Prius
v 1.1 = American Prius w/ higher engine rpms
v 2.0 = HSD = Re-designed Prius with higher voltages


HONDA:
v 1.0 = Insight w/ 10hp motor
v 1.1 = Civic/Accord w/ 14 hp motor
v 1.2 = New 2006 Civic w/ 16 hp motor & motor-only option


FORD:
v 1.1 = Essentially same design as the Old Prius



Agree? Disagree?

troy
 

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ElectricTroy said:
TOYOTA:
v 1.0 = Japanese Prius
v 1.1 = American Prius w/ higher engine rpms
v 2.0 = HSD = Re-designed Prius with higher voltages


HONDA:
v 1.0 = Insight w/ 10hp motor
v 1.1 = Civic/Accord w/ 14 hp motor
v 1.2 = New 2006 Civic w/ 16 hp motor & motor-only option


FORD:
v 1.1 = Essentially same design as the Old Prius



Agree? Disagree?

troy
Ford is a 1.0, since it is their own design. There's lots of material about this out there on the web...
 

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Isn't the Accord 1.3 since it's more power and has better regen efficiency than the HCH?
 

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Tideland Prius said:
Isn't the Accord 1.3 since it's more power and has better regen efficiency than the HCH?
I would have to think it's just an incremental improvement... 1.1.1 if you want to be really picky. :)
 

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Unless you specify what the criteria is for determining a version number, you cannot assign one. That list above is an observation based on configuration choices within the current market. There isn't anything defined technically, which should be a basic requirement for an industry-wide standard. How are we suppose to identify new models?

Instead, a far more realistic method is to simply identify what actually changed from one model to the next. For example, using categories like this...


Engine HP
Engine RPM Redline


Motor HP
Motor kW
Motor Torque


0-60 MPH (seconds)

Tire Width
Tire Diameter


Battery-Pack Energy (W/kg)
Battery-Pack Voltage
Battery-Pack Weight (lbs)
Battery-Pack Section Type
Battery-Pack Section Count


Hybrid-System Voltage



ORIGINAL Prius

58
4000


40
30
225


14.1

165
15


600
288
125
D-Cell
40


288



CLASSIC Prius

70
4500


44
33
258


12.5

175
14


900
273.6
110
Module
38


273.6



HSD Prius

76
5000


67
50
295


10.1

185
15


1250
201.6
99
Module
28


500


.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
John's post is un-readable. So I'll just ignore it.
Tideland Prius said:
Isn't the Accord 1.3 since it's more power and has better regen efficiency than the HCH?

The Accord *engine* has more power, true, but the hybrid portion (battery, 14hp motor, serial transmission) is exactly the same as the Civic. Honda didn't make any changes to the hybrid drive.


Also I know that Ford *claims* they designed their own system, but I suspect 90% of that work involved crawling underneath a Prius to gather ideas, because the result is virtually identical to Toyota's system. Ford even leases Toyota patents, in order to avoid courtrooms.

troy
 

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john1701a said:
Unless you specify what the criteria is for determining a version number, you cannot assign one. That list above is an observation based on configuration choices within the current market. There isn't anything defined technically, which should be a basic requirement for an industry-wide standard. How are we suppose to identify new models?
Cars are always grouped by body style and more commonly. In that respect this Prius would be the second generation Prius.

Engines are usually refered to by Year and displacement. So it would be a Prius '04/05 1.5 HSD, I guess.

So if you see someone refer to a '84 Saab 900 with the 2.0, you'd know exactly what you were dealing with.

This is the common way of refering to engines/bodies in the automotive world.

I'm not sure that the HSD in the Highlander and Lexus RX400 can be considered the same as the Prius HSD. The HL/RX produce more power, have a rear electric engine, and so on. HSD should really be thought of more as a label for Toyota's hybrid technology core, much like VTEC or iVVT.
 

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I know the engine's more powerful but I thought the IMA was more efficient at recapturing energy during regen, that sort of thing.
 

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john1701a said:
ElectricTroy said:
John's post is un-readable.
All you have to do is match the colors for each section.

Or for an HTML formatted version, go to this webpage...
http://john1701a.com/prius/prius-histor ... enerations

.
I don't think that's what he meant John. The point is that there's no simple way to distinguish b/w the various incarnations of the hybrids. Something simple to type in a post to make oneself clear.

Although you are very much right that a technical answer like you suggest is much much more descriptive, it's very cumbersome, confusing to many and just not user friendly.

I think a system like Troy proposed is very handy in casual conversation such as an internet forum. "I think Honda's v1.3 system is superior to the Toyota v1.1 system." for instance.
 

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Classic Prius in US is notchback. HSD Prius is hatchback. So, if you aren't happy with "Classic" and "HSD," or the model years are too hard, just say hatchback or notchback. or don't say anything at all. :)
 

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efusco said:
very handy in casual conversation such as an internet forum.
Numbers have always been problematic, as we have already proven with the packages and with software.

Names or a short-phrase are dramatically easier to remember and associate attributes to.

Criteria for a standard must be provided to determine what number is appropriate. Over the last 2 years, no one has been able to come up with a measurement that can be applied across the entire automotive market. So, names are still the best choice.
 

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ElectricTroy said:
TOYOTA:
v 1.0 = Japanese Prius
v 1.1 = American Prius w/ higher engine rpms
v 2.0 = HSD = Re-designed Prius with higher voltages
Would like to call them...
NHW10
NHW11
NHW20
These are very clear to me.
 

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efusco said:
I think a system like Troy proposed is very handy in casual conversation such as an internet forum. "I think Honda's v1.3 system is superior to the Toyota v1.1 system." for instance.
I think you'd have to talk more about the application... such as, HSD in the Prius is good, but HSD in the highlander isn't as good as Ford's Hybrid setup in the Escape.

It's verbose, but then isn't that really the only way to get a point across? :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
We're not engineers John. We just want a simple reference like "The New 06 Civic is generation 1.2 of Honda's system" or "The American Prius is generation 2.0"



To be frank, we have better things to do with our lives than drool over specification tables. Assigning generations/version numbers makes it easier to converse.

troy
 

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ElectricTroy said:
We just want a simple reference
Oversimplification is what has caused all the MPG problems with the EPA estimates. Encouraging the nightmare that comes from that kind of vague labeling is a poor choice.

A small amount of detail is totally acceptable, intentionally avoiding it is not. People already understand "horsepower" and "torque" and "liters". The automotive industry has already proven their importance. So adding a select few more, like "kW" and "voltage", shouldn't be a big deal.
 

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john1701a said:
A small amount of detail is totally acceptable, intentionally avoiding it is not. People already understand "horsepower" and "torque" and "liters". The automotive industry has already proven their importance. So adding a select few more, like "kW" and "voltage", shouldn't be a big deal.
Hrm.. people more or less don't care John. Simple references are good. There has to be a happy medium somewhere between oversimplification and your overcomplication efforts.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
john1701a said:
ElectricTroy said:
We just want a simple reference
Oversimplification is what has caused all the MPG problems with the EPA estimates.

As I said, "We're not engineers John." The EPA engineers get paid thousands of dollars to design accurate tests.

We do not. We just want a simple reference like "2006 civic is generation 1.2 of Honda's hybrid" for casual conversation.



"Get a life!" - William Shatner aka Captain Kirk

troy
 

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The key is SIMPLE, not VAGUE.

Comparing numbers has very little to do with engineering. You don't need to know how the horsepower is achieved to know that a larger number means the vehicle will accelerate faster.

What is the purpose of saying "generation 1.2 of Honda's hybrid" when it can be configured differently on different vehicles of the same year or even the same model? Someone could easily argue that a larger motor would justify a different number... especially since you still haven't explained how the number is determined.

EXPLAIN HOW THE NUMBER IS DETERMINED !!!
EXPLAIN HOW THE NUMBER IS DETERMINED !!!
EXPLAIN HOW THE NUMBER IS DETERMINED !!!
EXPLAIN HOW THE NUMBER IS DETERMINED !!!
EXPLAIN HOW THE NUMBER IS DETERMINED !!!
 
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