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Discussion Starter #1
Toyota wants every one out there to know about the "HSD" drivetrain !


Toyota Motor Corp., the world's largest seller
of gasoline-electric autos, plans a U.S. advertising campaign to
promote its hybrid power system as the company brings out more of the
fuel-efficient vehicles.

The campaign, starting Sept. 26, will focus on the Hybrid Synergy
System rather than individual vehicles that use it, Toyota spokeswoman
Cindy Knight said. She said it will be a multimillion-dollar effort
and wouldn't give a figure. The industry magazine Automotive News said
in today's issue that the amount will be between $30 million and $60
million.

``We have rigorous plans to roll out several more hybrid products in
the future, like the Camry next year,'' said Knight, who is at the
U.S. sales unit in Torrance, California. ``We're looking to establish
Hybrid Synergy Drive as the leading brand.''

Toyota, the world's second-biggest automaker, has sold 425,000 hybrid
vehicles worldwide since 1997, when its Prius car became the first
gas-electric vehicle offered for sale. The automaker has more than
doubled Prius U.S. sales this year through August to 72,849 and has
sold 93,957 hybrids including its Lexus RX 400h and Highlander
sport-utility vehicles.

President Katsuaki Watanabe said in New York last week that Toyota
wants to build as many as 400,000 such vehicles in 2006. Kazuo
Okamoto, an executive vice president, told reporters in Frankfurt last
week that the Toyota City, Japan-based company eventually wants all of
its model to use the hybrid system.

`Substantial Amount'

Toyota's marketing campaign will include billboards, print and
broadcast ads and signs at bus stops and gasoline stations. Sandi
Kayse, U.S. manager for car advertising, wouldn't give a figures for
the spending.

``It's at a level that reflects what we'd spend at the launch of a
vehicle, which is a substantial amount,'' she said.

Hybrids combine a gasoline engine, electric motor and a battery pack
that's recharged through braking. Honda Motor Co. and Ford Motor Co.
also sell hybrid models in the U.S. Companies including General Motors
Corp. and Nissan Motor Co. have announced plans for gas-electric
sedans and SUVs that are slated to begin appearing next year.

Hybrid vehicles have gained sales as U.S. retail prices for regular
gasoline have risen this year to a record $3.07 a gallon the first
week of September, according to federal government figures. They fell
to $2.96 last week.

Toyota's U.S. shares fell 90 cents to $85.85 at 3:07 p.m. in New York
Stock Exchange composite trading.
 

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Discussion Starter #2
Desseminate the HSD among all World Car Manufacturer

Toyota should "free-license" their system to all auto manufacturers.
I believe reading, The THS system were "free-licensed to FORD in exchange of any innovation done by FORD upon the THS system will go back to TOYOTA's proprietary patent archive "Free" ?
 

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Re: Desseminate the HSD among all World Car Manufacturer

C.Rickey Hirose said:
Toyota should "free-license" their system to all auto manufacturers.
I believe reading, The THS system were "free-licensed to FORD in exchange of any innovation done by FORD upon the THS system will go back to TOYOTA's proprietary patent archive "Free" ?
THS was not licensed to Ford, and Ford's system is different than THS and HSD.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Re: Desseminate the HSD among all World Car Manufacturer

Jonnycat26 said:
C.Rickey Hirose said:
Toyota should "free-license" their system to all auto manufacturers.
I believe reading, The THS system were "free-licensed to FORD in exchange of any innovation done by FORD upon the THS system will go back to TOYOTA's proprietary patent archive "Free" ?
THS was not licensed to Ford, and Ford's system is different than THS and HSD.
JonnyCat26. Please educate me how does FORD Power split devise works
or do they use "Belt & cones" CVT ala DAF system ?

I thought reading that, when FORD embarked on building their Hybrid system and their end product became apprent to be very close and similar
to the Toyota's THS then decision was made from FORD to get a "FREE"
licensing agreemnt in order to _Not_ litigate with Toyota ? 'cause FORD
will loose the litigation ? And why buying the Hybrid components for their
Escape from Toyota's affiliated companies ? Please explain to me..
 

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Re: Desseminate the HSD among all World Car Manufacturer

C.Rickey Hirose said:
JonnyCat26. Please educate me how does FORD Power split devise works
or do they use "Belt & cones" CVT ala DAF system ?
Crikey, I will have to quote PriusEnvy's excellent post on this topic. I hope he doesn't mind...

PriusEnvy said:
From http://www.fordvehicles.com/escapehybri ... WinXP#faq1



Where did Ford's hybrid technology originate?

Ford Motor Company designed, developed and validated its own hybrid powertrain system In fact, Ford expects more than 100 patents to be issued covering this unique Ford hybrid system.

From http://pressroom.toyota.com/photo_libra ... d=20040623



[quote:26nwckvb]


Is Ford using the Toyota hybrid system?

Although the Ford hybrid system is very similar to Toyota's, Toyota is not directly supplying any components to Ford. Toyota and Ford have entered into a licensing agreement allowing Ford to use technology that had been patented by Toyota. Toyota welcomes the introduction of the Escape hybrid and Ford's effort to demonstrate and gain acceptance of this important environmental technology.

From http://www.evworld.com/view.cfm?section ... 7&end=4276



Another misconception that I should clear up is the urban legend that Ford is using Toyota's Hybrid Synergy Drive. It is not.

I repeat, Ford Motor Company did not buy, beg, borrow or steal the gasoline-electric drive system out of the Prius. It is "Made In the USA". Period.

Ford engineers clarified this question for me nearly a year ago at their Michigan Proving Grounds, and both Ford and Toyota have tried to get the media to report this fact accurately, but still I occasionally come across reviewers who erroneously claim that Ford licensed the technology from Toyota.

Toyota's Cindy Knight -- with whom I am personally acquainted -- told the Detroit News some time back, "Ford developed their own version of the power control system ... but it came up so close to what Toyota had developed that to protect from infringement, Ford licensed 20 patents from Toyota that make efficient operation and emissions reduction possible."

She added, "It is not really accurate to say that Ford obtained the technology from Toyota . So far, Nissan is the only other company that has planned to get its hybrid system -- or parts of it -- directly from Toyota".

The way the Escape Hybrid engineers explained it to me, Ford swapped patents with Toyota, exchanging some catalyst technology it owned for the 20 patents Toyota had. No monies actually changed hands.
From http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/87/ford.html



Ford could have done things more simply. It might, for example, have bought part of Toyota's hybrid system, as Nissan has done. But in November 2002, less than two years from the scheduled start of production, Martens decided to develop the technology in-house. The only Toyota patents that it licensed, he says, were to avoid patent infringement. "That was a defining moment," he says. "It took away the safety net."

From a strategic perspective, though, Ford had no choice. It could not be saddled with Toyota's first-generation technology while its rival was busy creating the next system. And buying instead of building would also have denied Ford folks the chance to earn their own patents (more than 100 so far) and develop skills for future projects.

Apparently, both companies' PR departments get really annoyed when they are continually asked if Ford got their hybrid system for the Escape from Toyota.

Unfortunately, a few badly misinformed individuals insist on continuing to propagate incorrect information, thus perpetuating the cycle.
[/quote:26nwckvb]

The original post is here..
http://www.priusonline.com/viewtopic.ph ... c&start=15
 

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As a self-proclaimed detector of weasel words, I smell weasel words. Ford could easily clear up any "misunderstanding" simply by publishing their design. You know, simple things like:

- How many electric motors are there and where?
- What gears/chains/pulleys are involved and for what purposes?
- What are the main electrical components and how are they wired?

Anyway, according to CNN, Ford is whining that Toyota's snarfing up all the good hybrid parts. Well, according to the headline anyway, the article paints a far less "exciting" situation. Having seen the press fail miserably at most descriptions of hybrids, I suspect much of this article is misleading as well (certainly the headline).

Hmm, I suppose "self-proclaimed detector of weasel words" could be considered weasel words. :p
 

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RSnyder said:
As a self-proclaimed detector of weasel words, I smell weasel words. Ford could easily clear up any "misunderstanding" simply by publishing their design. You know, simple things like:
After Toyota does the same, no doubt. :)

Anyway, this is a brilliant move by Ford. They're pointing out that their hybrid SUV is selling like hotcakes and there's a waiting list for them, the Toyota hybrid SUVs aren't moving at all, and they could sell a lot more if only they could get the parts.
 

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Ive seen a lot of HSD adverts here in Europe over the last week. They show a Prius, and a lexus, "made" out od HSD emblems. They dont mention either by name, just HSD. They also point to http://www.hybridsynergydrive.com in the advert.
 

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It is quite possible folks, that Ford and Toyota have different parts, but the manufacturers of those parts have limited resources to produce those parts.

Just like our gasoline situation. There may be enough oil out there for a while, but limited means in getting to it.
You have enough energy in your tank to drive 400 miles, but can you do that in one second? No, your power is limited, not your energy.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Jonnycat26 said:
RSnyder said:
As a self-proclaimed detector of weasel words, I smell weasel words. Ford could easily clear up any "misunderstanding" simply by publishing their design. You know, simple things like:
After Toyota does the same, no doubt. :)

Anyway, this is a brilliant move by Ford. They're pointing out that their hybrid SUV is selling like hotcakes and there's a waiting list for them, the Toyota hybrid SUVs aren't moving at all, and they could sell a lot more if only they could get the parts.
Is that right ? I have no problem selling my monthly allocation of the Hybrid Highlanders. Show me the stats that Toyota's version is not moving at all. I'm asking Toyota distribution to give me more HH because I have
none in stock. Always gets pre-sold before arrives to me. I'm even selling the ones on the Boat or units leaving Japan !
 

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C.Rickey Hirose said:
Is that right ? I have no problem selling my monthly allocation of the Hybrid Highlanders. Show me the stats that Toyota's version is not moving at all. I'm asking Toyota distribution to give me more HH because I have
none in stock. Always gets pre-sold before arrives to me. I'm even selling the ones on the Boat or units leaving Japan !
I would browse the message boards on Edmunds.com then, as people there are getting good deals on cars sitting on the lots and buying them *under* MSRP. You should see if you can buy some of them and fleece, er help out, more of your sheep, er customers.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Jonnycat26 said:
C.Rickey Hirose said:
Is that right ? I have no problem selling my monthly allocation of the Hybrid Highlanders. Show me the stats that Toyota's version is not moving at all. I'm asking Toyota distribution to give me more HH because I have
none in stock. Always gets pre-sold before arrives to me. I'm even selling the ones on the Boat or units leaving Japan !
I would browse the message boards on Edmunds.com then, as people there are getting good deals on cars sitting on the lots and buying them *under* MSRP. You should see if you can buy some of them and fleece, er help out, more of your sheep, er customers.
May be in your area as N.J. but here in CA lots of people ordering them.
Same as the Prius at MSRP. sheep ? so Prius buying customers at MSRP are they be called "Sheep" You should have more respect to all Hybrid owners or soon to be owners ! Do you drive a Hybrid ? or own one
 

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C.Rickey Hirose said:
May be in your area as N.J. but here in CA lots of people ordering them.
Same as the Prius at MSRP. sheep ? so Prius buying customers at MSRP are they be called "Sheep" You should have more respect to all Hybrid owners or soon to be owners ! Do you drive a Hybrid ? or own one
I own a Prius. And I consider the Prius (and the upcoming Civic) to be a decent value for the money. Same with the Escape hybrid. And I have respect for the owners of all 3 vehicles.

And anyone who buys a HiHy or a RX400 is a sheep. Period. They're overpriced and underwhelming in terms of milage. I have no respect for those vehicles at all.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Jonnycat26 said:
C.Rickey Hirose said:
May be in your area as N.J. but here in CA lots of people ordering them.
Same as the Prius at MSRP. sheep ? so Prius buying customers at MSRP are they be called "Sheep" You should have more respect to all Hybrid owners or soon to be owners ! Do you drive a Hybrid ? or own one
I own a Prius. And I consider the Prius (and the upcoming Civic) to be a decent value for the money. Same with the Escape hybrid. And I have respect for the owners of all 3 vehicles.

And anyone who buys a HiHy or a RX400 is a sheep. Period. They're overpriced and underwhelming in terms of milage. I have no respect for those vehicles at all.
How about paying "respect" to people who buys non Prius Hybrids ?
Hey people wants somehow get in and be seen in a Hybrid be it Prius
HH or Rx400H Honda's versions or the Ford Escape.
 

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C.Rickey Hirose said:
How about paying "respect" to people who buys non Prius Hybrids ?
Hey people wants somehow get in and be seen in a Hybrid be it Prius
HH or Rx400H Honda's versions or the Ford Escape.
Dude, is that like english? You totally lost me after the first sentence, which totally contradicts what I wrote about respecting all hybrids except Rx400H and HiHyHiPrice. I can't understand anything beyond the first sentence.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Jonnycat26 said:
C.Rickey Hirose said:
How about paying "respect" to people who buys non Prius Hybrids ?
Hey people wants somehow get in and be seen in a Hybrid be it Prius
HH or Rx400H Honda's versions or the Ford Escape.
Dude, is that like english? You totally lost me after the first sentence, which totally contradicts what I wrote about respecting all hybrids except Rx400H and HiHyHiPrice. I can't understand anything beyond the first sentence.
Yes You Do. If you have FORD stocks dump it now or you will be Cent-Less !

Oh what a feeling to preach, Toyota's Hybrid Technology !
 

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Jonnycat26 said:
And anyone who buys a HiHy or a RX400 is a sheep. Period. They're overpriced and underwhelming in terms of milage. I have no respect for those vehicles at all.
Yes Jonnycat26,
I understand you don't respect anyone who didn't buy the same vehicle as you (or at least use the exact same criteria as you). There are lots of people like that. Now here's an interesting little tidbit: There are a billion people in China who don't care what you think.
 

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RSnyder said:
I understand you don't respect anyone who didn't buy the same vehicle as you (or at least use the exact same criteria as you). There are lots of people like that. Now here's an interesting little tidbit: There are a billion people in China who don't care what you think.
Actually Robert, I don't care what you think either. :)

I just don't think that anyone who buys a HiHy or RX400 and thinks they're saving gas or helping to reduce oil consumption is very smart. And I doubt many would disagree.
 

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I just hope they don't screw up the Camry Hybrid. Snapping on Cdn$10,000 on a Highlander (which itself is already expensive) for the hybrid option isn't smart and thinking people will pay is false hope and dreams. $36,000 nets you a base 4WD V6. That's $10,000 over the price of a Camry LE V6. If priced right, people will dump the Highlander Hybrid and get the Camry Hybrid.

That said, I've tested an RX400h and my average for that test drive was 9.0L/100km. It was a 30 min test drive btw. 9.0L/100km isn't bad considering our Camry's averaging 9.9L/100km according to its trip computer.
 
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