[Tideland Prius]

For Toyota , it's a question of whether the tank is half-empty or half-full. The automaker is the unquestionable leader in the fast-growing U.S. hybrid-electric vehicle market. But hybrids are coming under increasing criticism for failing to deliver the sort of mileage manufacturers like Toyota are promising.

The Japanese automaker's Prius has become the world's best-selling hybrid, while the U.S. has become Toyota 's biggest market for the gas-electric mid-size sedan, accounting for about 60 percent of worldwide Prius sales. With additional hybrids coming into production, such as the recently-launched Lexus RX400h, Toyota is looking to sell 1 million hybrids annually by 2010, according to Don Esmond, senior vice president of automotive operations for Toyota Motor Sales, U.S.A., Inc., and "if you put a pencil to that, (the U.S. ) would be doing 600,000."

The question is what it will take to get there. While the recent run-up in U.S. fuel prices has made the economic equation for hybrids increasingly attractive, that may not be enough to nurture a truly mass market. And in the coming years, Toyota and its Lexus luxury arm are likely to shift focus to expand the appeal of hybrids, according to senior company officials.

After a slow and uncertain start, many analysts have come to agree that hybrids are gaining momentum, aided in part by the run-up in U.S. fuel prices. But other observers remain skeptical.

"We see the general desire for these types of vehicles growing," said Jeff Martini, vice president of the Polk Center for Automotive Studies. "However, the compelling argument to actually buy one has to be made more strongly," he added.

http://www.thecarconnection.com/Ind...yota_Rethinks_Hybrid_Strategy.S175.A8928.html

 

[hyperion]

Just wanted to acknowledge this article. Interesting reading from the mouth of Toyota!
Thanks.

 

[KTPhil]

Other than the prediction of 1M units, little of this article is attributed to Toyota. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that as Toyota implements it's "hybrids for all models" strategy (known publicy for more than a year) naturally the other types behicles represents an "expansion" of hybrid's appeal. The implied linkage to lower-than-EPA mpg is entirely from the author, not Toyota.

More misleading statement that Toyota is claiming mileage over real-world numbers. It's the EPA which requires this. Toyota obviously wants to promote the high MPG of its cars, but as we all know, legally can not use anything but EPA numbers.

I love the repetition of the idea that hybrids don't pencil out. Just ask GM about how well that strategy has worked!

Old news, and mis-stated at that.

 

[hyperion]

Does seem to agree with the new york times article. And the additional cost may be the reason for the backoff of GM, Ford, and Chrysler Mercedes. We live and learn. It will in the final anyalsis come down to what you want to sacrifice for a snygergy system in the type of car you really want to drive.
We'll certainly know more about this subject by Christmas.

 

[BIF]

Yaaah, whatever. We get a couple more hurricanes in the gulf, a few more terrorist attacks in the middle east, and a tanker, pipeline, or refinery accident, and we'll see the price of oil touch $75-$80 with very little resistance.

We're paying $2.30 here in central Florida for regular unleaded. An increase of 30% in the price of a barrel of oil will eventually become a 30% increase in the price of gas at the pump. $2.30 + 30% = 2.30 + .69 = $2.99. :shock:

And in California money, that will be something like... er... $5,000.00 per gallon, right? :roll:

:?

 

[Tideland Prius]

It's still cheaper than the rest of us

It's a $3.10/gal here ($1/litre)

which is still cheaper than in the Netherlands :|

 

[evander]

It's still cheaper than the rest of us

It's a $3.10/gal here ($1/litre)

which is still cheaper than in the Netherlands :|

Go most places in the world, and we realize here is the U.S. that we're getting gas pretty cheaply in comparison. But aren't there 4 liters to a gallon which would make your price closer to $4?

 

[ChasSuitt]

3.846 liters = 1 gallon. Just for the record.

 

[richard schumacher]

"Next year's [Lexus] GS450h is expected to feel more like a conventional sports sedan, with a mix of software and hardware changes meant to replicate the feel of a conventional sedan going through rapid gear changes."

Meaning, periodic hestitations and consequently a longer 0-60 time? Sheesh. I wonder how many people will pay money for that foolishness. If Lexus sold boats would they try to replicate the feel of performance while under sails?

 

[Jonnycat26]

"Next year's [Lexus] GS450h is expected to feel more like a conventional sports sedan, with a mix of software and hardware changes meant to replicate the feel of a conventional sedan going through rapid gear changes."

Meaning, periodic hestitations and consequently a longer 0-60 time? Sheesh. I wonder how many people will pay money for that foolishness. If Lexus sold boats would they try to replicate the feel of performance while under sails?

Dude, driven a good conventional automatic recently? Or in the last decade? If you have, most of them snap off shifts faster than you can possibly imagine. There's no "periodic hesititation". And I think the VW/Audi DSG automatics are faster than conventional stick shifts. Some people prefer that level of control I think.

 

[richard schumacher]

Bah. This is in the same category as using speakers to deliver synthetic exhaust noise.

 

[Jonnycat26]

Bah. This is in the same category as using speakers to deliver synthetic exhaust noise.

No, that's obnoxious.

Shifting gears for yourself is something people prefer. If you're going around a corner, and want to downshift as you're coming out to take off down a straight segment, no automatic is going to think ahead as far as a human driver can.

Even on the Honda CVTs, they have a "sport" function which simulates the same thing.. it'll throw the revs up to max (and IMA assist up to max as well I believe) so more power is available to the driver.

Just because *you* don't like it and *you* don't see a need for it doesn't mean it's not necessary.

 

[Tideland Prius]

oh? I used 3.78.. oops.


Yeah, Nissan incorporated 7 simulated gears in their CVT Murano just so that they can offer a "manual" mode. :roll:

 

[richard schumacher]

Dude, driven a good conventional automatic recently? Or in the last decade? If you have, most of them snap off shifts faster than you can possibly imagine. There's no "periodic hesititation". And I think the VW/Audi DSG automatics are faster than conventional stick shifts.

In other words, they're almost as smooth as Toyota's planetary drive? Cool :_>

Some people prefer that level of control I think.

Control, from an automatic? I don't understand.

 

[richard schumacher]

Just because *you* don't like it and *you* don't see a need for it doesn't mean it's not necessary.

Necessary. Hmm. They'll do whatever they think will help sell a few more cars.

 

[Jonnycat26]

Control, from an automatic? I don't understand.

Yes... if it's a manumatic, or simulated automatic, or tiptronic, or whatever you want to call it, you get more control than you would from a conventional automatic.

In fact, you often get better response (like with DSG) than you would with a regular stick.

It's a win win for people who dig driving.

 

[BIF]

Jonnycat...dude! Were you just looking for an argument? Hee hee, just curious. 8)

To see why I thought that, go back and re-read the posts before yours more carefully. You're trying to argue the wrong argument, man. The point raised was that Lexus is thinking about SIMULATING the "pause/ker-chunk" of shifting gears, while still using the HSD. This is NOT about actually putting any type of traditional and/or higher performance tranny in the car. It's about cow-towing to consumers' "misperceptions" about how cars "should" be.

So I'm with the other folks here, saying "WTF"? Why would they do such a thing? Do they think we cannot be educated?

Unless I misread something along the way, and "misunderstimated" the prior threads myself.

 

[Jonnycat26]

The point raised was that Lexus is thinking about SIMULATING the "pause/ker-chunk" of shifting gears, while still using the HSD.

And the point I was trying to get across is that modern automatics, with gears and all, do not go pause/ker-chunk. Just try to open your minds folks.

 

[WayneBruce]

The point raised was that Lexus is thinking about SIMULATING the "pause/ker-chunk" of shifting gears, while still using the HSD.

And the point I was trying to get across is that modern automatics, with gears and all, do not go pause/ker-chunk. Just try to open your minds folks.

And that is exactly the point. If modern automatics don't even go pause/ker-chunk, then why bother SIMULATE it at all in a HSD? Hence, the "WTF?" moment.

 

[Jonnycat26]

And that is exactly the point. If modern automatics don't even go pause/ker-chunk, then why bother SIMULATE it at all in a HSD? Hence, the "WTF?" moment.

Did you read any of what I wrote, or even try to see it from a driving enthusiast's point of view? Some people like the idea of taking a corner and commanding the transmission to "hold this gear ratio" so they can use engine braking, accelerate out of a turn, etc.