This guy just doesn't like hybrids...
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What makes you say that? I found it factual and even-handed.
Well, what the article states about return is true. One would have to do the math, but at the rates and monies quoted, yeah, there is not a pure money reason to go hybrid. Yet.
The article did point out that the Prius IS closest to a payback.
And he did point out, rightly, that one can save gas by driving differently.
We in this forum have discussed at length that buying a Prius IS not only to save money; many wish to have a clean car, HOV lane access, o rlike me, not spend too much on gasoline.
Diesel is not an option for most of us as it costs more, is somewhat dirtier, and does not return the MPG that the Prius does. Notice that the author discussed only the Accord and not the 2006 Civic Hybrid, which is the Prius true competition as far as cash outlay.
The article did point out that the Prius IS closest to a payback.
And he did point out, rightly, that one can save gas by driving differently.
We in this forum have discussed at length that buying a Prius IS not only to save money; many wish to have a clean car, HOV lane access, o rlike me, not spend too much on gasoline.
Diesel is not an option for most of us as it costs more, is somewhat dirtier, and does not return the MPG that the Prius does. Notice that the author discussed only the Accord and not the 2006 Civic Hybrid, which is the Prius true competition as far as cash outlay.
Didn't say it wasn't true...just said he doesn't care for hybrids!
A friend of mine says no way he will get a hybrid for many of the reasons listed in the article. It costs more than a gas-powered car, doesn't get the advertised mileage (most cars don't), little or no room for negotiating buying price, and cost to replace battery is a lot. Plus, he said there are many other nice small cars that get good mileage like the Matrix and Mazda 3.
Despite my friend's anti-hybrid sentiments, I still love driving my Prius and love getting 50+ MPG. Whether he thinks I was foolish to get one, I don't care. Hybrids are not for everyone.
Despite my friend's anti-hybrid sentiments, I still love driving my Prius and love getting 50+ MPG. Whether he thinks I was foolish to get one, I don't care. Hybrids are not for everyone.
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Okay, so, suppose you couldn't give a hoot about emissions, and you couldn't give a hoot about the oil industry. Suppose all you care about is dollars.
If it's about $4,000 more for a hybrid than an equivalent non-hybrid, it's easy to look at relative ratios of real-world MPGs between those cars, multiply by the current price of gas, extrapolate that over the useful life of the car, and even account for likely inflation in gas prices during that time.
And sure, you're going to come out behind. I can understand that.
But toss in that hybrid tax incentive, and... you come out way, way ahead. Don't you? I don't understand why everyone keeps leaving that out of the equation.
The whole point of the incentive is specifically to address that gap -- and get the manufacturers over the hump until they can narrow the gap enough that you will come ahead even without it, one day. That's what it's for. Why is it a surprise for it to do exactly that?
If it's about $4,000 more for a hybrid than an equivalent non-hybrid, it's easy to look at relative ratios of real-world MPGs between those cars, multiply by the current price of gas, extrapolate that over the useful life of the car, and even account for likely inflation in gas prices during that time.
And sure, you're going to come out behind. I can understand that.
But toss in that hybrid tax incentive, and... you come out way, way ahead. Don't you? I don't understand why everyone keeps leaving that out of the equation.
The whole point of the incentive is specifically to address that gap -- and get the manufacturers over the hump until they can narrow the gap enough that you will come ahead even without it, one day. That's what it's for. Why is it a surprise for it to do exactly that?
Hi All,
Well, he is a good writer, he duped you guys good. I do not think much of his reasoning, however. Here is my take on the Hybrid and Diesel pieces. Good Writer, never solved a real-world engineering or accounting problem in his life, I bet.
In the Hybrid car piece he said the Prius was $100.00 more than a comparable Camry. But, then in the Diesel piece he said a Diesel is $2K more than a comparable car. This apparently contradicts the main generality in your Hybrid piece as declared in the title "Hybrids: Don't buy the hype Sure, hybrids save gas but they won't save you money. There are smarter ways to go.". For $1900 dollars less premium, I can get better mileage in the Prius, with a fuel that costs less, and does not have cold morning starting problems. He also points out that a Hybrid will retain most of its mileage advantage in the suburban driving environment, but the Diesel wont. Again I will save more money with the Prius! It hardly seems "smarter" to me to pay $1900 dollars more for a Diesel , rather than a Prius, and then have to pay more for the fuel as well!
There are other issues. I believe the only economical diesels in the US are being sold by VW. I doubt that the Camry size comparable Mercedes Diesel E320 CDI is even anywhere close to a Camry in cost, let alone the $100 dollar premium for the Prius.
As far as pollution goes, even modern diesels smell. I was behind a brand new VW TDI on my drive home tonight. It smelled.
While a Diesel could be used in a Hybrid Synergy drive, none are now, so the Diesel cars have all the extra unreliability of the multi-gear-set transmission, the starter, and the alternator.
A more heavily built Diesel engine does not mean it is going to last longer, for the very reason it was built more heavily in the first place. The forces inside such an engine are allot greater, and that means to keep things straight it has to be heavier. But who is to say its heavy enough to have more engine life? GM built automotive Diesels once, and they did not last very long. This is a wash. It all depends on the manufacturer's corporate commitment to actual vehicle value and has nothing to do with if the engine itself is a Diesel.
A heavier Diesel engine needs a heavier car to keep it on the road, and a heavier car needs more fuel to accelerate and tires with more drag. In a Hybrid, this is not so much a problem, as the weight means more regenerated energy.
While I agree with most of the facts in his pieces, I generally disagree with the generalities he draws from them. The Hybrid piece should be titled "Prius - Nothing comes close yet" instead based on the facts in the two articles!
The Prius was designed from the ground up to be a total system. The only other Hybrid that appears to also have been so designed would be the no-longer marketed Insight. When looking for a new car, this appears to be the important thing to look for, in a vehicle that is practical for your life. All the car companies are scrambling now. There will be allot of car designs that get rushed onto the street in the next few years. Many will have all the marketing punch list items pushed, but that does not garuntee a car that works well in the real word!
Well, he is a good writer, he duped you guys good. I do not think much of his reasoning, however. Here is my take on the Hybrid and Diesel pieces. Good Writer, never solved a real-world engineering or accounting problem in his life, I bet.
In the Hybrid car piece he said the Prius was $100.00 more than a comparable Camry. But, then in the Diesel piece he said a Diesel is $2K more than a comparable car. This apparently contradicts the main generality in your Hybrid piece as declared in the title "Hybrids: Don't buy the hype Sure, hybrids save gas but they won't save you money. There are smarter ways to go.". For $1900 dollars less premium, I can get better mileage in the Prius, with a fuel that costs less, and does not have cold morning starting problems. He also points out that a Hybrid will retain most of its mileage advantage in the suburban driving environment, but the Diesel wont. Again I will save more money with the Prius! It hardly seems "smarter" to me to pay $1900 dollars more for a Diesel , rather than a Prius, and then have to pay more for the fuel as well!
There are other issues. I believe the only economical diesels in the US are being sold by VW. I doubt that the Camry size comparable Mercedes Diesel E320 CDI is even anywhere close to a Camry in cost, let alone the $100 dollar premium for the Prius.
As far as pollution goes, even modern diesels smell. I was behind a brand new VW TDI on my drive home tonight. It smelled.
While a Diesel could be used in a Hybrid Synergy drive, none are now, so the Diesel cars have all the extra unreliability of the multi-gear-set transmission, the starter, and the alternator.
A more heavily built Diesel engine does not mean it is going to last longer, for the very reason it was built more heavily in the first place. The forces inside such an engine are allot greater, and that means to keep things straight it has to be heavier. But who is to say its heavy enough to have more engine life? GM built automotive Diesels once, and they did not last very long. This is a wash. It all depends on the manufacturer's corporate commitment to actual vehicle value and has nothing to do with if the engine itself is a Diesel.
A heavier Diesel engine needs a heavier car to keep it on the road, and a heavier car needs more fuel to accelerate and tires with more drag. In a Hybrid, this is not so much a problem, as the weight means more regenerated energy.
While I agree with most of the facts in his pieces, I generally disagree with the generalities he draws from them. The Hybrid piece should be titled "Prius - Nothing comes close yet" instead based on the facts in the two articles!
The Prius was designed from the ground up to be a total system. The only other Hybrid that appears to also have been so designed would be the no-longer marketed Insight. When looking for a new car, this appears to be the important thing to look for, in a vehicle that is practical for your life. All the car companies are scrambling now. There will be allot of car designs that get rushed onto the street in the next few years. Many will have all the marketing punch list items pushed, but that does not garuntee a car that works well in the real word!
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I would add a few more factors that would make hybrid prices less disparate--at least as far as Prius is concerned.
Brakes--I use my brakes a lot less than on other cars I've owned--maybe due to the regen process. My dealer service dept. say he's had customers with Prii whose brakes have lasted more than 100,000 miles.
Starting--I assume there's no starter to replace, right?
Changing oil/filter--Since the ICE doesn't run all the time, this can safely be done less often than conventional ICEs
Battery--In concerns about the cost of a new battery, it is not taken into consideration that there's a good possibility that the price will come down in a few years as hybrids are more mass produced.
Brakes--I use my brakes a lot less than on other cars I've owned--maybe due to the regen process. My dealer service dept. say he's had customers with Prii whose brakes have lasted more than 100,000 miles.
Starting--I assume there's no starter to replace, right?
Changing oil/filter--Since the ICE doesn't run all the time, this can safely be done less often than conventional ICEs
Battery--In concerns about the cost of a new battery, it is not taken into consideration that there's a good possibility that the price will come down in a few years as hybrids are more mass produced.
Reports of the Insight's demose are premature:donee said:Hi All,
The Prius was designed from the ground up to be a total system. The only other Hybrid that appears to also have been so designed would be the no-longer marketed Insight. !
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I like how they always like to compare it to some other car. At least it's a good comparison this time - a Camry.
Problem is, diesels aren't that viable an option. Here, the only station that sells diesel is Mohawk or Husky (Esso does sell diesel but only at truck stops or along trucking routes).
Here, a 2005 Passat Wagon TDI costs Cdn$33,560. (or $500 more than the 170hp, 1.8 litre version). The Prius starts at $30,730. It's a 2.0 litre engine with a cast iron block pumping out 134hp @ 4000rpm and 247lb-ft @ 1900rpm. It weighs 1,584kg (Prius weighs 1,335kg). It does 0-100km/h in 10.4 seconds.
The fuel economy rating on the Passat Wagon TDI is 8.7/5.7 compared to the Prius' 4.0/4.2 (L/100km). That's 27/41 for the TDI and 59/56 for the Prius (in US mpg). Big difference. Performance is about the same. Cd of the Passat is 0.32 compared to the Prius' 0.26. With the Passat I'm getting is a much bigger cargo area, wider tyres (195/65R15), 4-wheel disc brakes, heated front seats, 10-way adjustable front seats (that's nice!), automatic door locks, heated windshield washer nozzle, theft-deterrent system and telescopic steering wheel. The Prius has automatic climate control and EBD for the ABS.
Problem is, diesels aren't that viable an option. Here, the only station that sells diesel is Mohawk or Husky (Esso does sell diesel but only at truck stops or along trucking routes).
Here, a 2005 Passat Wagon TDI costs Cdn$33,560. (or $500 more than the 170hp, 1.8 litre version). The Prius starts at $30,730. It's a 2.0 litre engine with a cast iron block pumping out 134hp @ 4000rpm and 247lb-ft @ 1900rpm. It weighs 1,584kg (Prius weighs 1,335kg). It does 0-100km/h in 10.4 seconds.
The fuel economy rating on the Passat Wagon TDI is 8.7/5.7 compared to the Prius' 4.0/4.2 (L/100km). That's 27/41 for the TDI and 59/56 for the Prius (in US mpg). Big difference. Performance is about the same. Cd of the Passat is 0.32 compared to the Prius' 0.26. With the Passat I'm getting is a much bigger cargo area, wider tyres (195/65R15), 4-wheel disc brakes, heated front seats, 10-way adjustable front seats (that's nice!), automatic door locks, heated windshield washer nozzle, theft-deterrent system and telescopic steering wheel. The Prius has automatic climate control and EBD for the ABS.
CU included resale value/depreciation in its calculations and rated the Prius a best buy. Most articles leave out that these cars are not depreciating as fast as a conventional car. Sure, leave out thousands of dollars in savings and the car doesn't pencil out. So what?
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I notice most writers believe the Prius propulsion battery lasts only eight years because that's what they're warranted for and will then have to be replaced. Who sez? Why would Toyota guarantee a battery for eight years risking the need for some that may need replacing after 7 years and 11 months? I'll bet when many of our Prii get that old, their batteries will go on and on and on, maybe even double the warranty period. Sounds like a stretch, but those batteries are treated very kindly during service life. Let's see, I believe the cells are limited to a 40 percent discharge level and an 80 percent "full" charge level. Heck, I wish people would treat me that nicely.
I hope the batteries last on and on. I plan to put 200K on this car, unless a good trade-in deal comes along.
Even if a few batteries eventually need replacing out of warranty, one can probably get one from salvage.
Even if a few batteries eventually need replacing out of warranty, one can probably get one from salvage.
Yeah, I hear about the multi-thousand dollar cost of 'those batteries' all of the time from people who just recently replaced an automatic transmission in their Camry at a cost of $5k or the guy whose D-C minivan's engine went out after 90,000 miles; replaced at a cost of $3,500...
Maybe they should have waited until that infernal combustion technology and hydraulic/planetary gearset technology 'matured'... :roll: :lol:
Maybe they should have waited until that infernal combustion technology and hydraulic/planetary gearset technology 'matured'... :roll: :lol:
Hmm. If people are spending that kind of money to fix high mileage vehicles, maybe I should have spent a few hundred dollars to fix my 92 Sentra that had 240K on it. It developed a coolant leak over the spark plug, causing it to short out. Otherwise, it ran perfectly.
I agree with the main argument that the Prius is not just about saving dollars with gas cost. It was Samuel Clemens (Mark Twain) who said there are lies, damn lies, and statistics.
If all you want is to save money, in the short term, then the Prius is not it. Everything in life is a balance. We also prioritize. Given my desire for emissions and fuel cost reduction, the Prius was the only car for me.
I have a saying...."If we all can't be like me, we might as well be different!"
If all you want is to save money, in the short term, then the Prius is not it. Everything in life is a balance. We also prioritize. Given my desire for emissions and fuel cost reduction, the Prius was the only car for me.
I have a saying...."If we all can't be like me, we might as well be different!"
In the words of Frank Burns, "Individuality is fine, as long as we do it together"
DanMan32 said:In the words of Frank Burns, "Individuality is fine, as long as we do it together"
Bwahhhhhhh!!!!!!!!
ROTFL!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:
Thanks for the levity, DanMan :wink:
The payback method of analysis with regard to the Prius is crazy. All of us know that because no other vehicle in history has ever been evaluated inside the constraints of payback, and no other vehicle has had this artificial concept of hybrid premium attached.
Why is the hybrid premium artificial? Because other features of the vehicle negate it. I have said it before and will say it again. What car can you buy from a domestic or foreign manufacturer for between $21,000 and $26,000 which has digital dash, auto climate and touch screen information center. None.
Aside from the 04 and 05 not having leather or power seat availability, it is probably the best equipped mid-sized vehicle in that price range. A car is more than just a power plant, it is the whole package. When the Prius is evaluated as a whole package under realistic conditions, it is a remarkable value.
Why is the hybrid premium artificial? Because other features of the vehicle negate it. I have said it before and will say it again. What car can you buy from a domestic or foreign manufacturer for between $21,000 and $26,000 which has digital dash, auto climate and touch screen information center. None.
Aside from the 04 and 05 not having leather or power seat availability, it is probably the best equipped mid-sized vehicle in that price range. A car is more than just a power plant, it is the whole package. When the Prius is evaluated as a whole package under realistic conditions, it is a remarkable value.
jeromep said:What car can you buy from a domestic or foreign manufacturer for between $21,000 and $26,000 which has digital dash, auto climate and touch screen information center. None.
quote]
While I agree that the concept of payback and so-called hybrid premium is bogus (like that diesel engine premium), I personally do not think that a digital dash and the @##$$%% touch screen information center is all that wonderful.
The fact that I can get a midsized car that is a hatchback PLUS delivers great MPGs and is a 'clean-car', now THAT is something!!
(quick everyone go to Kelley or Edmunds and find a midsize hatchback, let alone one with any toys or great mileage.....)
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