Hm.

I first would want ALL if this in writing. Second, are they loaning you a new Prius comparable to the one you are paying for while they fumble about repairing a KNOWN defect. You COULD be without a car for over 6 months (my 1986 Acura HvAC was out for 4 months while Honda tried to make repair parts ...). Did the dealer give you a time frame for completion?

Something is amiss if the dealer cannot give you more data than what has been stated. You may want to contact your state's Auto repair bureau and note your concerns.

Good luck.

Walt (my Prius may NEVER see a Toyota service bay :wink:

 

It is possible that the HV ECU or ICE ECM lost its programming due to an incomplete flash. One of the versions of the THHT firmware was known to cause this. I think it was version 13.1. If the flash upgrade gets interrupted for any reason, including loss of power to the THHT, the car (which is why the tender is required), or a transfer program flaw, then the ECU has an incomplete program and is useless. This is no different than updating the bios on a motherboard of a PC, except nowadays, there is a backup bios or at least a backup flash loader to reload the flash.

If the ECU or ECM lost its code, then the car cannot be driven any more than if these modules were removed from your car, and any more than if someone removed your microprocessor or bios chip from your motherboard would cause your PC to be a doorstop.

 

This is in response to DanMan32.

Thank you for your answer.

From what they are telling me, the car can be driven and everything will appear normal, but based on the fact that the new programming didn't take, something more than the recall vulnerability is lurking, and my car could break down at any time, and this is what I find hard to believe.

So if there is not a loss of ECU or ECM code such that the car can not be driven, seemingly normally, would you try to drive it now?

Also, what does THHT stand for?

 

boy, is your dealer feeding you a line of crap.

the 'serious problem' with the ECU is that they fried it, no more and no less. gross negligence, there has been a series of warnings posted in their technical information system regarding proper flashing of prius ECUs. the car won't be driveable.

what toyota told them ahead of time was 'don't fry the ECU, we have too many on backorder already from the software glitch in the scan tool.'

see, the first week or so that the recall was available, the scan tool they use to reflash the ECU had a software defect of its own that would screw up the ECU, basically. that wasn't negligence on the tech's part, that was a screw up in the software engineering. they caught it and figured out the problem, and sent out all sorts of warnings to use a different version of software. not everyone paid attention to that warning, and as a result of that negligence, people are still getting fried ECUs.

there are still about 150 ECUs backordered in the US according to the last figure i heard. hopefully you'll be getting yours soon.

until then, drive the rental car and track your gas mileage. i'd bill them for extra gas costs in whatever car they gave you, unless they happened to give you another Prius to drive.

 

From what they are telling me, the car can be driven and everything will appear normal, but based on the fact that the new programming didn't take, something more than the recall vulnerability is lurking, and my car could break down at any time, and this is what I find hard to believe.

So, you are driving the car right now? If the car is driveable they didn't flash the vehicle at all. A failed flash will cause the vehicle to not work at all. If they successfully completed the flash then nothing to worry about, you should have a sticker under the hood that indicates that you have had the 50p update and all is well.

I'd be very suspicious of this dealership because the only reason your car would need a new ECU is if the flash failed and the programming was incomplete. As such you are driving the vehicle, so you are operating on valid and functioning programming. There are then no hidden or lurking issues because none of have been introduced.

I'd find another dealer to work with, and I'd call Toyota corporate reagarding this issue and the fact that you don't believe you are being told a straight story.

 

This number of stocked parts for a car that has been sold by about 200,000 units "sucks" Some one should advise Toyota about Federal Express!
If they are really serious about the Prius their parts dept needs improvement.

 

hyperion- they made about enough ecu's to match new production.

i think 500-1000 ecu's were fried in the first week or 2 of this update. that's a huge, unexpected demand.

i'm not defending their way of doing things, i'm just saying that's what happened.

 

I still have to stand by with my first remarks. If the word ever got out that the Prius is a great car but you just can't get parts for it, I dont want to be the one who states that they just make enough parts for "new" production units. I would personally shut down production now and devote every ECU made to the parts dept. And Fed Express still offers overnight service from the Orient to my Toyota dealer in New Bedford Mass. I'de say, get those part suppliers in China "cranked up."
At the least, I would be stripping every new car on the docks for their ECU's and forwarding them to dealers with "parked" cars. Do that and their would be a new "priorty" for certain car immobilizing part supplies.
Maybe I expect too much but a little common sense could be used here.

 

At the least, I would be stripping every new car on the docks for their ECU's and forwarding them to dealers with "parked" cars. Do that and their would be a new "priorty" for certain car immobilizing part supplies.
Maybe I expect too much but a little common sense could be used here.

You're not serious, are you? That would make those cars no longer new. Trying to sell those cars as new would be fraud. Would you knowingly buy such canabalized then later fixed cars as new? If you found out later that this was done to your car, would you not complain?

There is another explanation to what the dealer is saying, though I do doubt their integrity.
It is possible the scan tool or ECU is refusing to even start the flash. It does do some checks first.

 

Sorry to disagree with you again DanMan but if a new car placed on the dock was found with a broken window which was replaced on the dock with a new one before going to the dealer, it would still be a new car. In fact any car sold with "zero" milage at a dealer can be considered a new car. I expect it would take a "trained" wrench about a hour to swap out something like a computer module which could be replaced in the same time when the parts started started showing up. This is what I call "common sense" and I am perfectly serious. You might think different if it was your car languishing at a dealers while you were waiting for a replacement part to show up from Japan.
It should never have to occur but something seems to be wrong with the part replacement on these cars as several posts have indicated.
I don't mind being told I have to wait for a part when I am told it was just shipped from a Chicago warehouse, but the answer "I can't tell you when" is unacceptable.
"Canabalized?" You think if a car shows up at a dealers without the headlights working and they are replaced before being delivered to the customer negates the "new car" status. Think, a little. If the same car shows up without a computer module and the dealer replaces it before delivery, the car can no longer be sold as new?
"Fraud," I don't think you meant to say that.
I believe a dealers interpretation of a new car is one that has not as yet been titled. I've seen many posts here of owners picking up their new cars with as much as 12 miles indicated on the odometer.

 

Replacing a bulb is a whole lot different than replacing an ECU. Replacing a window is also something I better not know about. Glass fragments could be anywhere, rendering the car not new, as well as possible door panel not being installed perfectly.
How many have been reluctant to have work done, in the fear that door/dash panels would never be perfect again? I believe even you, Hyperion, have commented about that.

 

This discussion of new, not new reminds me of an “incident” that occurred at the Ford Assembly plant that I worked at during the summer when I was in College. I was on the Econoline Van production line testing brakes. Up the line from me the Vans went from a ground line to an overhead line so the drive train, brakes, wheels etc could be put on. At the transfer station, the Vans rolled of the ground line to a carriage that was then pushed by hand to the place where the overhead line dipped to the floor. The overhead cradle attached at each of the four corners to the frame. After being attached the line then went up to about 5-6 feet off the ground. One night the “gang” that made the transfer got the front of a Van attached but not the back. The overhead went up dragging the rear end of the Van. Someone hit the panic button and stopped the entire line through out the plant. No one was working. The local supervisor called everyone possible over and we tried with out success to lift the rear up and reattach it. 3 or 4 min later the senior supervisor arrived. He took one look. Stopped a forklift going by with a pallet of parts. He jumped in to the fork lift dropped the pallet in the walk way. Raised the fork about 3 feet off the ground and drove them through the side of the Van. Lifted it up and it was hooked up. He pulled back waved at the fork lift driver to get the fork lift out of there, yelled at all of us to get back to work and hit the button starting the line. I checked up on that Van. When it got to the end of the line with those four huge holes in it they sent it to the body shop fixed it and put it on a truck and sold it as new.

 

Reminds me of the stories about buried beer cans in the Firebirds/ Camaros coming out of the Van Nuys (CA) plant before it was closed.

Geewiz, and to think the Japanese are supposedly building better cars... who would have thought with behavior like this? ;-)

 

This discussion of new, not new reminds me of an “incident” that occurred at the Ford Assembly plant that I worked at during the summer when I was in College. I was on the Econoline Van production line testing brakes. Up the line from me the Vans went from a ground line to an overhead line so the drive train, brakes, wheels etc could be put on. At the transfer station, the Vans rolled of the ground line to a carriage that was then pushed by hand to the place where the overhead line dipped to the floor. The overhead cradle attached at each of the four corners to the frame. After being attached the line then went up to about 5-6 feet off the ground. One night the “gang” that made the transfer got the front of a Van attached but not the back. The overhead went up dragging the rear end of the Van. Someone hit the panic button and stopped the entire line through out the plant. No one was working. The local supervisor called everyone possible over and we tried with out success to lift the rear up and reattach it. 3 or 4 min later the senior supervisor arrived. He took one look. Stopped a forklift going by with a pallet of parts. He jumped in to the fork lift dropped the pallet in the walk way. Raised the fork about 3 feet off the ground and drove them through the side of the Van. Lifted it up and it was hooked up. He pulled back waved at the fork lift driver to get the fork lift out of there, yelled at all of us to get back to work and hit the button starting the line. I checked up on that Van. When it got to the end of the line with those four huge holes in it they sent it to the body shop fixed it and put it on a truck and sold it as new.

How long ago was it that you were working for Ford when this happened? I'm a little surprised that a vehicle with body work would make it onto a dealer lot. I could see Ford patching it up and keeping it for their own purposes, but that would be pretty bad to send a damaged vehicle out there for sale.

As for the Prius. It isn't in good form to take new cars that are coming into port and strip them to provide parts for cars that need service. It introduces variability in the manufacturing and delivery process which doesn't need to be introduced. I'm not so certain myself that I would trust port personnel to do the "stripping" of these vehicles and then the subsequent repair of these vehicles with parts as they became available.

The core issue here is not if Toyota has parts of the cars, but dealerships taking responsibility for doing computer flashes by the book. Aside from the software issue that Toyota identified on the THHT (that was out of the hands of the tech until they issued a communication) and the vehicles that had failed flashes based upon that, if a Tech follows the procedure down to the letter it should work.

This is a communications issue and a global business problem. You can generate as many communications, memos, emails, web pages and other hard solid forms of information and documentation and if they aren't read, they don't do any good anyway.

 

1968-69. Can't remember which summer it was. Good money 10 hours a day one week off for change over. Quality was not job one back then.

 

I am the originator of this forum topic. Sorry I haven't gotten back for a couple days, but I thought that Dan Man's answer had then led me to more stuff on the internet that explained my problem. Namely that version 13.1a of the transfer software was frying ECUs. I finally got a straight answer from Toyota that my ECU was indeed fried and the car was definitely undrivable. I am waiting for a new ECU and do have a loaner.

At first I got the service manager to agree that 13.1a must have fried my ECU, but it turns out that that the service manager confronted the mechanic with the information I gave him about 13.0a (good) 13.1a (bad), and 13.2a (under development). The mechanic told the service manager that he had neither used 13.1a or gone back to 13.0a. He had used 13.2a on my car, and I was the very first one. According to the mechanic, he had contacted Toyota when the process failed on my car, and Toyota had told him that since 13.2a was being used, my ECU must have been bad when I drove the car in for the recall, and that it didn't get fried during the recall procedure.

Am I being fed a load of crap? Did they somehow fry my ECU? I know that my car and its computer were operating perfectly when I drove the car in.

 

when software first comes out, you're not supposed to use it for flashing ecu's.

why the &*%( would the tech use the new version that hadn't been tested if he knew about all the problems the last update caused??

 

You're not serious, are you? That would make those cars no longer new. Trying to sell those cars as new would be fraud. Would you knowingly buy such canabalized then later fixed cars as new? If you found out later that this was done to your car, would you not complain?
.

I don't agree with Hyperion, but I think he's got a good point. At the very least Toyota should short production of new Priuses to get parts who need them. I think that's the decent thing to do, IMO.

 

The reason I suggested swapping them from cars on the dock was because they are here in the U.S. and not waiting to be scrounged up in Japan with the dealers having to say they "will be ordered" but I have no idea when I will have them. You can bet if they had several hundred new cars on the docks waiting for ECU's they sure as heck would be using Fed Express. They might even grab a few they have sent to China!
In the automotive industry this really should not be a big deal, especially with a company that is striving to be the largest in the world. I know for the majority of cars in the U.S. the parts guy has always been able to get on his computer and tell you that he has the part, or where the part is, and exactly when it will arrive at the dealership and it won't be in some machine shop waiting to be made.

 

This is the originator of this forum topic again. I have learned a lot from all of your answers, but I am still trying to see if I can get to the bottom of this problem in light of the fact that my dealer keeps insisting that their failed ECU update is not what fried my ECU. I have thought of another possible explanation for my failed update that I want to run by you people, but first let me summarize what the dealer is trying to tell me.

The dealer is telling me that they used the new version 13.2a of the transfer software and not the bad 13.1a version. They are saying that my failed update indicates that my current ECU was bad to begin with, and that if I had not come in for the recall, it would have soon failed, perhaps in the middle of driving, or perhaps as an inability to start the car. My car was running perfectly when I brought it in, and I do not believe their explanation.

I am not as technically astute as many of you people, so forgive me if this is way off base, but I am just wondering if the DLC could be bad in my car and thus have prevented a successful flash of the new software. If the DLC is bad, then even if I get a new ECU, and the car again runs perfectly, will I have a future problem if error codes have to be scanned or a new recall requires a new software update to the ECU?

Also, I found out through this forum that the DLC is near my right knee, but since I am not currently in physical possesion of the car, I have not been able to check this out. Where in relation to the key slot is the DLC?

 

If by DLC, if you are seeking the OB2 terminal "plug in," it is right below the key ignition slot under the lip of the dash and you "plug in" vertically. When you get your car it is much easier to find with a mirror than by standing on your head. This is the port used for plugging in the "scan guage" which are mentioned on this site.
Hope this helps.

 

recalled05,

Assuming all that the dealer told you is true (I am not doubting you, just getting data), what do they propose to do? How much will this cost you? Is the car and ECU NOT under warranty? Forgive my questions, but I do not know what series Prius or whether you are under any warranty.

It seems that if you are under warranty, the dealership should merely replace what is broken. Period. Did they imply that YOU broke the ECU? If so, what did they write up as proof?

Walt (more confused...)

 

Thank you, hyperion, for your answer on the location of the DLC.

Wstander, here is my reply to you. The dealer will replace my ECU under warranty. They are not accusing me of damaging the ECU. They are just saying that the ECU must have been on its way out when I brought it in. I just would like to have a good explanation of what is going on because all my previous experience with car dealers and repairers is that the more I understand about my car, the better off I am.

The dealership is actually a good dealership, and I like the service manager very much, but in light of the lack of certainty as to just what went wrong with the recall, I am worried that my car, which for 2 years previously ran perfectly, may now have an unknown problem which might cause me grief going forward. I hope this is not the case, but I would like to know as much as possible.

Again, can anyone out there tell me whether or not it is possible that my failed recall (again done with version 13.2a) could have been caused by a bad DLC, and if so, if my ECU is replaced, do I have a potential problem down the road the next time an error scan is done or a recall requiring updating the software on the ECU is done?

 

It seems some of you should go back and see your knee-jerk reactions. First, recalled05 did not indicate, but it seems he had just taken in his Prius. So, as of today it has maybe been a week and some are screaming that it should be fixed NOW!

I was surprised at Galaxee who vehemently insisted it was GROSS negligence of a fellow techs (at least her husbands fellow) work. The later explanation by recalled about the new software made sense to me. The yelling about the tech using the old scan tool after being told not to, was debunked.

Some posters basically refused to believe this because that would mean they would have to see how "knee-jerk" they were. DanMan (bless you) as always comes on with a calming point of view (but I also disagree about his absolutist view on "new car" "not new car") and people jump on him for that.

Hey, the Prius is a great car, but it is still a car, things go wrong...people do their best (and unless proven otherwise, I ALWAYS assume people tried their best). It seems if a major component like the ECU is fried, and the dealer is fixing it at no cost...and a loaner car is given...and the dealer is doing all they can...even if they don't have a spare Prius on the lot to loan...we should not be unreasonable and crappy about it.

And just because someone thinks there ought to ALWAYS be enough parts available to fix something "yesterday"...it just ain't so. Remember this the next time something goes wrong with you that could have been prevented if you had "just" anticipated it.

Let's cut everyone just a little slack.

 

Many years ago, if you bought an import, you had to wait for parts. It was one of the sacrifices you made, but you weren't happy about it. Many stayed away for this reason.

Then VW came along and required that dealers stock every single part (easier when you didn't change year to year). To prove it, they would periodically BUILD a car from the spare parts at a dealer. Furthermore, the stock of new cars was a function of their repair and parts capacity; if you didn't stock enough parts, they didn't send you new cars to sell.

This changed the attitude of many dealers, domestic and foriegn. Now we take it for granted that the parts are at hand, if not already in stock.

But "LEAN" manufacturing and "JIT" inventory have caused a retreat in some cases. There isn't a warehouse full of parts at the ready.

Then you have the unexpected failures, like the "blown" ECUs, that aren't modeled by the reliability/logistics folks, and there can be a scramble.

I agree that to preserve their rep (not just sales), Toyota should make every effort to get parts out fast when their dealers blow the ECU. I even agree that new production should be sacrificed if necessary. Toyota doesn't need the Prius (and by implication all hybrids) to get a bad rep for reliability or ease of service or scarcity of parts.