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I know it is frustrating but actually the numbers of both cars are so negligible as to not make any difference either way. There never will be a large market for the Hummers account of selling price and ditto with the hybrids. They will be too expensive to justify on gas savings and so until regulations are set (not likely with an oil administration) we won't see them.
 

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sprett said:
Gosh, now I feel bad for making this thread going way out of line. Maybe we should start a different thread for political discussion? Or, maybe not.... I pardon for any offfence taken.
Hey, sprett, nothing for you to apologize for at all. Put any 5 Americans together and you are liable to get 6 opinions !! :D

I'm sorry for highjacking the thread into politics.

If the H2 is about 60-70K$ here, and about 100K$ there, I wonder what it cost to ship it from US to Sweden. I'm assuming shipping cost in case of Prius: Japan to US, or Japan to Sweden, wouldnt be that different, unless you have some unusual import taxes or some such. I'm pretty sure we have none on cars built in Japan.
 

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hyperion said:
Back to the devil advocate thing. What's anti social about driving a Hummer made in America that meets the Califotnia enviremental codes which are not required in at least forty other states. (probably Colorado)
The "ego" thing doesn't "wash" as you could very well say, driving a Prius is an "ego" thing.
I would be with you on that, hyp, except for one thing. The large SUVs are on the road as passenger cars because Congress put a "light truck" exemption into the mileage standards imposed on vehicles.

I seem to remember that light trucks were about 10-15% of the fleet at the time & the purpose of the exemption was to not put a burden on small business who relied on them...carpenters, florists, store delivery vehicles, landscapers, etc etc.

The auto industry took that well intentioned exemption, abused it by building and marketing passenger vehicles on "light truck" chasis. And we now have a fleet of probably 50% "light trucks" (SUVs, pickups as passenger cars, etc) which do not have to meet the mpg, therefore clean air & safety standards we have for all other passenger vehicles.

If the auto industry would accept and sign up for passenger vehicle standards for "light trucks" sold/used as passenger vehicles, I would agree with you and say let them build & sell what they can.

The Hummer, for example, doesnt even have to get an EPA rating, because it is a truck that exceeds a certain weight. :shock:
 

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I just took out my CR 2005 car issue, it says the H2 is $51,435-56,225. so my 60k-70 guess was way off :oops: :oops: .

H3 is $34,000-37,000 estimated
 

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You make a good point An04 but it doesn't really make that much of a difference account of the numbers. According to MRV's figures a total 160,000 Prius total of all generations sold in the US as of July one, with no indication at all of increased monthly production rates. This in a country with 140 million passenger cars is less than a drop in the bucket. Ditto for the less than thirty thousand Hummers made with probably half still on the lots.
For the greenhouse we have to concentrate on other methods for electrical power. The auto industry just isn't going to hack it!
 

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hyperion said:
You make a good point An04 but it doesn't really make that much of a difference account of the numbers. According to MRV's figures a total 160,000 Prius total of all generations sold in the US as of July one, with no indication at all of increased monthly production rates. This in a country with 140 million passenger cars is less than a drop in the bucket. Ditto for the less than thirty thousand Hummers made with probably half still on the lots.
For the greenhouse we have to concentrate on other methods for electrical power. The auto industry just isn't going to hack it!
I agree. The most important thing about the 160K Prius's and people waiting line to pay MSRP is the message it sends, to govt, auto co, corp's, consumers, etc. Toyota really has to be congratulated on making environmental sensitivity so appealing & so visible.

PS, I hope those hummers stay on the lot a LONG time, that is another great message.
 

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I think we can keep this going for a little while. My point on the Prius is that production won't be increased until Msrp is raised substantially. I still believe the Prius comes with a five thousand factory subsidy. Not so with the European models which are considerably higher in price but are a partially different car with a different suspension and disk brakes all around. Also come with that elusive EV switch.
As for Hummer prices maybe CR should check out "E" bay prices. You may not have been that far off.
 

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hyperion said:
I think we can keep this going for a little while. My point on the Prius is that production won't be increased until Msrp is raised substantially. I still believe the Prius comes with a five thousand factory subsidy. Not so with the European models which are considerably higher in price but are a partially different car with a different suspension and disk brakes all around. Also come with that elusive EV switch.
As for Hummer prices maybe CR should check out "E" bay prices. You may not have been that far off.
The book, Prius That Shook the World confirms your position that the original Prius (Oct 1997 ann. probably 1998 first ships in Japan) was subsidized, in Chapt 14. However, a subsidy can be a complex concept to account for.

For a simple example, (I'm making all this up, of course),if the R&D for the Prius was originally planned to be written off over 100,000 vehicles, and there are now 160K shipped, and there is no end in site, then that R&D cost (with additions of course for additional R&D) might drop from 25% per vehicle to 5% per vehicle. If the original cost of the Inverter ( a semi-conductor item with potential for steep drop off in costs) was $2,000. anticipating 100k of em, then by the time they make the 300thK of em, & see a million in the future, the cost might be $500.

It is sort of like "if we sell the 100k we plan on, we are subsidizing it, if we get lucky & sell 300k, not only no subsidy but a small profit, then if we use the same technology in other vehicles and they become winners, we are in profit heaven."

I realize this might be oversimplifying it, but that is the way it works essentially. You can only legitimately consider the original sales volume forecast in original pricing, then as that escalated upward you enjoy the bounty of the risk you took. MSRP has creeped up a bit at a time.

And you can get "tricky" with pricing. For example, the price from the 03 to major model change 04 was almost the same. BUT, 03 included all service in the base price I think for something like first 3 years. 04 did not. That is another way to increase the "effective" price by the cost of that "free" 03 service being added to the 04. probably somewhere btwn $500-1000 effective price increase.

We'll never know, but I doubt that current production costs are subsidized. I think Toyota is making a modest profit...growing with each unit sold, even more so as the technology is rolled into higher priced units like the Highlander, Camry.

There are a hundred different things to consider. Another example, up until very recently, there was probably not a single dollar of product specific advertising for the Prius. Ad costs are normally big part of cost. So if Prius had none...who knows how much that reduced cost that normally gets rolled into unit price.?
 

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More good points which were refuted by this weekends Globe article. They have definately nailed the production costs of the synergy system at five thousand dollars. This is borne out by the expected list price for the Prius system in the Camry. Not that much difference between cars.
At these prices the cars won't sell unless you have money to burn.
That may be the reason the American industry steered completely away from the hybrid.
160,000 Prius have been sold. One reason is the excellent warranty for what might have been " a pig in a polk" and the other the MSRP chosen by Toyota as a viable market value. I woild have paid no attention at all to a Prius with a base price of twenty five thousand dollars with the few options I would insist on for twenty eight thousand.
When I bought mine in March of 04 I could have picked up a comparably equipped Camry for $20,000. The eight thousand dollar difference would have been unthinkable. Three thousand was not fiscally a smart move, but I felt the learning experiance was worth it.
 

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Yesterday we were at Mels Diner in Los Angeles and There was 4 Prii in the small parking lot. I see alot on the road everyday with my commute (at least 4 a day),but have yet to see that many in one place. It was very exciting, my finace and our friends couldn't figure out why I wanted to park next to them.

Also I was at Friends party on Saturday and a Black 05 showed up with Chromed stock wheels. I never found out who owned the car as the party was a mixed crowd of people, some I didn't know and didn't feel the need to start asking everyone who it belonged to. That may have been weird.
 

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hyperion said:
You make a good point An04 but it doesn't really make that much of a difference account of the numbers. According to MRV's figures a total 160,000 Prius total of all generations sold in the US as of July one, with no indication at all of increased monthly production rates. This in a country with 140 million passenger cars is less than a drop in the bucket. Ditto for the less than thirty thousand Hummers made with probably half still on the lots.
For the greenhouse we have to concentrate on other methods for electrical power. The auto industry just isn't going to hack it!
Facinating. MRV presents evidence that by the end of June of 2005 Toyota has sold as many Prius as all of 2004. And hyperion, as is his wont, concludes that Toyota is not increasing monthly production. A couple posts later he concludes, yet again, without evidence, that Prius must be selling at a loss.. yadda, yadda. The broken record continues. Is there a point to this. Wishful thinking???????

Once again: just because hyperion doesn't know how to make and sell a hybrid at a profit doesn't mean that Toyota can't do it. Maybe they just don't feel like letting him in on the secret. Is that his goal? Prod them into foolishly revealing their deepest, darkest secrets?

And what of my goal? Prod hyperion into revealing his deepest, darkest motivations?

Or maybe something completely different (tm).
 

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hyperion said:
More good points which were refuted by this weekends Globe article. They have definately nailed the production costs of the synergy system at five thousand dollars. This is borne out by the expected list price for the Prius system in the Camry. Not that much difference between cars.
Thanks, hyp, I would love to read that Globe article. I'll try to find it or references to it. Sunday July 3 Boston Globe ??
 

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July 3rd Globe, entire front page probably automotive supplement. I'll look
Total Prius sold of all models in the US 120,000 up to Dec 04 and then the monthly figures show not all that much of a jump for a car with a three month waiting list. Rounded off, 5500 in Jan, 7,000Feb, 10,000Mar, 11,000 Apr, then 9500May and 9500June. No big increase and it has been said Prius production will be curtailed to allow Camry production to get cranked up.
 

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hyperion said:
July 3rd Globe, entire front page probably automotive supplement. I'll look
Total Prius sold of all models in the US 120,000 up to Dec 04 and then the monthly figures show not all that much of a jump for a car with a three month waiting list. Rounded off, 5500 in Jan, 7,000Feb, 10,000Mar, 11,000 Apr, then 9500May and 9500June. No big increase and it has been said Prius production will be curtailed to allow Camry production to get cranked up.
More wishful thinking by hyperion? Yawn.

Remember folks, in the wishful pessimist's world double is not all that much.
 
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