[Hep]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6225387/

Apparently we are not "green enough"!

 

[Saruman]

Somebody please tell me where we are going to get the hydrogen to run these cars?

Answer: Exxon Mobil and Amoco BP---it will be processed from petroleum JUST LIKE GASOLINE.

 

[SkipHuffman]

Somebody please tell me where we are going to get the hydrogen to run these cars?

Answer: Exxon Mobil and Amoco BP---it will be processed from petroleum JUST LIKE GASOLINE.

More specifically hydrogen is currently usually generated from natural gas. Still a fossil fuel but a more plentiful and domestic one. Also it is at least theoretically possible to produce hydrogen from any source of electricity (plus water). Wind, wave, solar, nuclear, coal, etc.

Hydrogen is NOT a fuel, it is a transport mechanism.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

the article talks like fuel cells large enough to service an automobile is just around the corner. that is bull.

the new membrane breakthrough cuts the cost of a fuel cell by more than 50% to what....$50,000 for a car. verses $4-5000 for an equal amount of gas.

for a more realistic report check out the New York Times

Membrane Breakthrough for Fuel Cells
By MATTHEW L. WALD

Published: October 5, 2004

here they say that fuel cells for LAPTOPS are just around the corner... cars?? not for another 8-15 years.

 

[Roger]

We have busses that run off hydrogen here. The need big industrial fans on the top to remove the heat, but they are operating. Their byproduct is water.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

hydrogen busses is one thing we havent got yet but we do have other alternative fuel methods we are employing in the Pac Northwest

http://priuschat.com/forums/album_pic.php?pic_id=874

http://priuschat.com/forums/album_pic.php?pic_id=716

 

[zinzindorff9]

Believe that hybrid bus is GM according to their ad in the New York Times last week.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

that is correct, it is a diesel-electric hybrid. sorry for the fuzzy pic, it was pouring rain when i took this pic so i wasnt about to get out of the car. i should wait for a good day and get another...

the state of WA has mandated that all State fleets investigate low poluting alternative fuel options. the bio-fuel used in the buses here is specially filtered to reduce all major types of exhaust. being behind on of these buses will convince you instantly as the exhaust from these buses smells almost like ozone or something like that. definitely no "smoky" smell to it.

 

[jshore]

There was an article in Science a few months back that did a full analysis of the efficiency of a conventional ICE car, a hybrid car, and a fuel cell car where the hydrogen is obtained by reforming of fossil fuels. The basic conclusion was that there was a significant gain in efficiency groing from the ICE to the hybrid but that the (best estimate of the) additional gain in efficiency in going to the fuel cell car was quite small.

Their basic conclusion was that the near term emphasis should be on hybrid cars and that fuel cell cars would not give much additional benefit until such time as we started producing the hydrogen from renewable energy sources.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

ummm that isnt totally correct. in fact current fuel cell vehicles are not any more efficient in using energy than the Prius. and yes the Prius is about 200% more efficient than a normal car.

however, PLANNED fuel cell vehicles should be more efficient. but they are not here today, it is the expected efficiency they would achieve AFTER the technology which currently doesnt exist is invented. here is a graph that shows what the car will do after it gets the energy.

http://priuschat.com/forums/album_pic.php?pic_id=909

 

[DanMan32]

ummm that isnt totally correct. in fact current fuel cell vehicles are not any more efficient in using energy than the Prius. and yes the Prius is about 200% more efficient than a normal car.

however, PLANNED fuel cell vehicles should be more efficient. but they are not here today, it is the expected efficiency they would achieve AFTER the technology which currently doesnt exist is invented. here is a graph that shows what the car will do after it gets the energy.

http://priuschat.com/forums/album_pic.php?pic_id=909

That chart needs some clarification. Does it consider efficiency/cost of generating hydrogen from fossil fuel as JShore was stating?

 

[SnakePuncess]

Diesel-hybrids... any on the way for cars?

that is correct, it is a diesel-electric hybrid. sorry for the fuzzy pic, it was pouring rain when i took this pic so i wasnt about to get out of the car. i should wait for a good day and get another...

the state of WA has mandated that all State fleets investigate low poluting alternative fuel options. the bio-fuel used in the buses here is specially filtered to reduce all major types of exhaust. being behind on of these buses will convince you instantly as the exhaust from these buses smells almost like ozone or something like that. definitely no "smoky" smell to it.

My husband and I were just talking about this tonight. He bought a VW Jetta diesel back in May specifically to be able to use Biodiesel. Apparently, we lucked out and live less than an hour from the only refinery on the East Coast... and he drives by it at least once a week. He's getting about 42-45 MPG, and the cost is almost the same as petro-diesel.

It seems that we could completely cut off the middle east from our fuel needs by pursuing biodiesel. Any thoughts on how we could push for a Bio-diesel hybrid Prius? I can imagine 80MPG+.... that would be sweet.. and put our farmers back to work while thumbing our big green thumbs at the OPEC nations.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

the chart does not take into consideration the expense or resources used to obtain the fuel. if that were the case, the fuel cell vehicle would be dead last.
also there was a another thread on this forum that had the same chart but updated for this year that now shows the Prius exceeding efficiency of current fuel cell vehicles. it has bumped up to 32% while fuel cells remain at 29%. It is in the traction control thread.

Snake Princess: unfortunately the clean bio-diesel cannot be made fast enough to supply the US needs. also, i question whether or not we can even grow that much excess crop. although we have the ability to grow way more than we can eat, i dont think the margins would be sufficient to make that much fuel at this time.

biodiesel is relatively new and does not have any real money behind it, so its an evolving process right now. the problem is, is that bio diesel can be used without any real processing, but the choice of fuels can lead to more polution than we currently get from regular diesels. i know of two people locally and a guy on PriusChat that is making their own biofuel. it is real easy. in fact, if you can make moonshine, you can make biodiesel. it is that possibility and the fact that bio diesel can be made by anyone that i think scares regulators away from the technology. its possible that people could start using nearly anything and that could really create havoc not to mention an enforcement nightmare.

 

[Rich D.]

Iceland is starting to use hydrogen to fuel cars. It's easy to see why.



On another note, I saw a man on TV that had a prius. He had converted the ICE to run on hydrogen. (The science show with Alan Alda).

 

[FBear]

Please read the MSN article carefully. There is one glaring error that I've found and there maybe more. Last time I checked the Atomic weight of Hydrogen is one (1) which means it has one proton plus one electron. Unless this company has figured out how to defeat the laws of phyisics then there is no way in hell they will be able to split an atom of Hydrogen into two protons and two electrons, unless of course they are trying for a nuclear explosion and then they still wouldn't get two protons and two electrons. Currently one of the ways to get hydrogen gas to use in the electricity to split water. There is definitely a false sense of economy and greeness here mainly because our current system of electric generation is very diry whether it is generate from nuclear or coal.

 

[mgaelli]

Please read the MSN article carefully. There is one glaring error that I've found and there maybe more. Last time I checked the Atomic weight of Hydrogen is one (1) which means it has one proton plus one electron. Unless this company has figured out how to defeat the laws of phyisics then there is no way in hell they will be able to split an atom of Hydrogen into two protons and two electrons, unless of course they are trying for a nuclear explosion and then they still wouldn't get two protons and two electrons. Currently one of the ways to get hydrogen gas to use in the electricity to split water. There is definitely a false sense of economy and greeness here mainly because our current system of electric generation is very diry whether it is generate from nuclear or coal.

Well, they do have their chemistry right in the article. They clearly state that "The catalyst splits each hydrogen molecule into two hydrogen protons and two electrons." And of course, a hydrogen molecule consist of two hydrogen atoms, and therefore of two protons and two electrons.
I'm not suggesting that fuel cells are better than Hybrids (I'm happily driving a Prius after all), but the above mentioned glaring error is actually not an error. The energy balance is still not great for producing hydrogen, and building an distribution network will be challenging as well. And if (or when) fuel cell vehicles are available and reliable, we can all trade in our Hybrids.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Iceland should have an all hydrogen environment within the next 2 years, but they have a huge advantage of nearly unlimited controllable geothermo energy. they have numerous hot springs that can be harnessed to produce very cheap electricity(only installation and maintainence fees) that is used to create the hydrogen. so the usual models of cost verses environmental impact does not apply there.

 

[RolfS]

Please read the MSN article carefully. There is one glaring error that I've found and there maybe more. Last time I checked the Atomic weight of Hydrogen is one (1) which means it has one proton plus one electron. Unless this company has figured out how to defeat the laws of phyisics then there is no way in hell they will be able to split an atom of Hydrogen into two protons and two electrons, unless of course they are trying for a nuclear explosion and then they still wouldn't get two protons and two electrons. Currently one of the ways to get hydrogen gas to use in the electricity to split water. There is definitely a false sense of economy and greeness here mainly because our current system of electric generation is very diry whether it is generate from nuclear or coal.

They said a "molecule" of hydrogen. Two atoms of hydrogen usually stick together as in H2 (the 2 is a subscript). From one molecule of hydrogen there are two protons and two electrons. I think they stated it correctly.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

all gas molecules form in pairs of atoms except the noble gas family

 

[RSnyder]

all gas molecules form in pairs of atoms except the noble gas family

Especially Carbon Dioxide and Ozone?