[barefootmatt]

I'm shopping for a Prius. My local dealer, I was surprised to learn, has three of them in stock, all 2005's. They just don't sell here, I guess. They're willing to offer me a discount if I take a 2005 instead of ordering a 2007. I have two questions for you sages of the Prius:

1. What, if anything, should I be concerned about with regards to getting a 2005 instead of a 2007? Any major design changes, safety or reliability issues that have since been fixed, etc.? I understand that the seat design has changed - can any of you speak to the relative comfort of the two designs?

2. What would be a reasonable price to pay? I'm going in on Monday to haggle, and I want to be prepared. They're offering $30,000 Canadian, which my handy calculator tells me is about $26,211 American. The three cars they have all have what is known in Canada as the "B Package". The packages seem to be labelled differently in the states, so for reference, this package includes:
- vehicle stability control
- premium JBL audio
- bluetooth capability
- in-dash 6-disc CD changer
- 9 speakers
- front side airbags
- front head/side curtain airbags
- smart key system
- garage door opener
- electrochromic rear view mirror
- theft deterrent system
- fog lamps

Thanks in advance for your help! I'm really excited about this opportunity to get the car I want for less than I budgeted for, but I don't want to get ripped off at the dealership.

 

[mrv]

Sounds like you're in Canada. You may want more targeted advice from http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/Canada-Prius/

I'd first check that the 2005s have had the steering shaft recall performed on them, and any other service campaigns (like an ECU reprogramming).

There's new badging on the 2006, and slightly redesigned rear light clusters and the front grille. The interior colors are different, and differently textured dash. The main noticable difference between 2005/2006 is the 2006 has a newer display (higher resolution graphics, more rounded buttons).

Some provinces do offer tax incentives for hybrids (like lower tax), but I don't know if buying a used car counts.

 

[Roger V]

I gather from the post that these are new vehicles? If so, what is the value of the discount over a 2007 equipped the same? Seems like you ought to be able to buy at pretty close to dealer invoice, if not below it, as the dealer has been sitting on these cars for over a year. Even if he had '06 models left over the discount should be substantial. Regarding the seat design, I have not noticed any change between my '04 and my '06.

 

[barefootmatt]

Yes, I am in Canada. Thanks for that link.

These are new cars, not used. They're being offered for $30,000 (CAD), which is about $9000 less than a similarly equipped 2007. I'm not sure what the dealer invoice price was.

 

[Roger V]

Yes, I am in Canada. Thanks for that link.

These are new cars, not used. They're being offered for $30,000 (CAD), which is about $9000 less than a similarly equipped 2007. I'm not sure what the dealer invoice price was.

Are they offering any leftover '06 models, or are they stuck with just the three '05 cars you described? The dealer would most likely be willing to show you the invoice for each car to let you know how good the price is.
You can go to Edmunds.com or the Kelley Blue Book website and find out what the dealer cost should be. It would be similar, within a few dollars anyway, for both years. Toyota has had some increases, but the '06 has some equipment, such as sidecurtain airbags, that are now standard. This would give you an idea, anyway. You could also get the used car value for '05 cars with very low mileage to help you figure whether it is really a good deal. Nearly a third off on a still new car sounds pretty good. Have the cars been sitting out in the weather, or stored indoors? The paint and interior may have suffered if they were outdoors all that time.

 

[C.Rickey Hirose]

Yes, I am in Canada. Thanks for that link.

These are new cars, not used. They're being offered for $30,000 (CAD), which is about $9000 less than a similarly equipped 2007. I'm not sure what the dealer invoice price was.

Are they offering any leftover '06 models, or are they stuck with just the three '05 cars you described? The dealer would most likely be willing to show you the invoice for each car to let you know how good the price is.
You can go to Edmunds.com or the Kelley Blue Book website and find out what the dealer cost should be. It would be similar, within a few dollars anyway, for both years. Toyota has had some increases, but the '06 has some equipment, such as sidecurtain airbags, that are now standard. This would give you an idea, anyway. You could also get the used car value for '05 cars with very low mileage to help you figure whether it is really a good deal. Nearly a third off on a still new car sounds pretty good. Have the cars been sitting out in the weather, or stored indoors? The paint and interior may have suffered if they were outdoors all that time.

Roger V,

Again Toyota Canada has all and entirely different invoicing and retail system unlike the U.S. The price structure and its invoicing does not have the U.S. invoice that we discussed in previous post. So looking at Canadian Invoice, you will be astonished as to how much more this part of continent pays for the Prius.

 

[barefootmatt]

Are they offering any leftover '06 models, or are they stuck with just the three '05 cars you described? The dealer would most likely be willing to show you the invoice for each car to let you know how good the price is.
You can go to Edmunds.com or the Kelley Blue Book website and find out what the dealer cost should be. It would be similar, within a few dollars anyway, for both years. Toyota has had some increases, but the '06 has some equipment, such as sidecurtain airbags, that are now standard. This would give you an idea, anyway. You could also get the used car value for '05 cars with very low mileage to help you figure whether it is really a good deal. Nearly a third off on a still new car sounds pretty good. Have the cars been sitting out in the weather, or stored indoors? The paint and interior may have suffered if they were outdoors all that time.

They just have the 2005's, I'm afraid. As you can imagine, they weren't about to stock 2006's when they couldn't sell any 2005's. Good idea to ask them what their invoice price was. It seems like they would tell me, and like C.Rickey Hirose said, the online American price listings won't necessarily show me a price comparable to what would be paid in Canada.

As for the condition of the cars, there is one there that's been used as a courtesy car (and would sell for even less because of that), but the one I'm interested in has (AFAIK) been sitting in the showroom the whole time. It looks to be in perfect condition. And it's red.

 

[Roger V]

Rickey and Matt,
I understand what you are saying about Canadian pricing being different, but if you have an idea what the profit is in the US, can't you figure a similar percentage for Candadian dealers? And, I suspect, there is some kind of invoice for those dealers, whether it uses the same format as here. There has to be some kind of structure to the system.
How about other dealers in your area, Matt? If the Prius is slow to sell, maybe somebody has leftover '06 cars at a deal as well, or maybe be more inclined to get you an '07. There might be '05 cars on their lots with low mileage. That would allow you to price compare to what your local dealer is offering on the '05. In any case, you are getting a brand new car, with what I assume is a full warranty, so the only question remaining is are you getting a really good deal.
Good luck with whatever you decide.

 

[C.Rickey Hirose]

Rickey and Matt,
I understand what you are saying about Canadian pricing being different, but if you have an idea what the profit is in the US, can't you figure a similar percentage for Candadian dealers? And, I suspect, there is some kind of invoice for those dealers, whether it uses the same format as here. There has to be some kind of structure to the system.
How about other dealers in your area, Matt? If the Prius is slow to sell, maybe somebody has leftover '06 cars at a deal as well, or maybe be more inclined to get you an '07. There might be '05 cars on their lots with low mileage. That would allow you to price compare to what your local dealer is offering on the '05. In any case, you are getting a brand new car, with what I assume is a full warranty, so the only question remaining is are you getting a really good deal.
Good luck with whatever you decide.

Roger V,

Ironic enough, the warranty starts from date of manufacture. If you purchase an 05 model year as in new vehicle status in 2007, you have already lost 2 years of warranty period.

Only way that the warranty starts from date of purchase is, if the vehicle has been registered with in the current model year.

IE: an 06 vehicle manufactured in 05/06 and you purchase it and register it in 12/06 then the warranty starts from 12/06. Otherwise starts from _date_of_manufacture.

Also to note: In the Canadian Prius, you will be hard to find the real dealer's vehicle cost as in the U.S.A. Toyota does not publish the inner sanctrum information, read= INVOICE.

The so called vehicle's invoice found in the NET has not been leaked by Toyota itself but, There is someone, within the Toyota dealers amongst us that, He or She, is been _Paid_ for leaking it to the Web, such as Edmunds or other Internet vehicle shopping web sites.

I have asked Toyota once, How come some manufacture's vehicles invoice is hard to find vs ours? They said, 'cause someone in the Los Angelse region, working in one of the Toyota dealers is selling the invoice
information as soon as that vehicle;s info is out to the dealers.

Other manufacturers or makes which you can not find the vehicle's invoices, works very secretely as to most of cases, the General Managers of that make do not make the _Invoice_ available to other personnel with in thus preventing Web shopping providers know the invoice.

Also to note, The Honda marque's invoice is hard to find out there. And the dealers Hold Back etc are an inquiring question. We, as a retailing chain, do have all or most makes sold in the States, to the tune of 300 plus retail dealership outfit across the Nation, have the Hondas as well.

When I ask one of my collegues at the Honda store, he says there is about 2% Hold Backs, Advert assistance, Finance assistance etc, but not sure? Honda and Acuras are very secretive about the inner invoice within the invoice. At least you the consumers can get the infos on the Toyota/Lexus vehicle's invoice, if is in the U.S. of A. !

 

[Ct. Ken V]

Hey, Rickey,

I can understand that if a customer had a dealer deliver a new car to a customer on the dealer's plates (so it could remain in storage, unregistered, until needed), that the warranty clock would start tick'g the day it left the dealer's lot. The dealer & the manufacturer don't know when it's going to be put on the road [& they also never know how much annual driving the customer does either----that's why it's either mileage or years (whichever comes first)-----if you're a travel'g salesman you could use up all your warranty in just one year].

Who would do the above, or why? you ask. Well I actually did that when I ordered my VW Rabbit Diesel back in 1978. They were very economical cars in high demand with up to a year's wait in must cases (just like the Prius). I had just done a major repair to my very old & tired previous car to that Rabbit (using used parts to save money for my down payment). I wasn't sure how long that repair would last & if I could come across more used parts again if I had to do it over again. To make a long story short, I got lucky & my Rabbit came in way sooner than the projected wait/delivery date, but i wanted to get my money's worth out of that repair. The repair & the down payment pretty well drained me back then & I wanted to save some money on my property taxes & insurance on that new car by leaving it un-registered & in storage (in my own garage) until the other car died of natural causes.

Also, that previous car was just about as economical as the Rabbit, so no burn'g desire to get it on the road when it came in early, even though we had just gone through the 2nd round of gas ration'g prior to my order'g the VW Rabbit. The Rabbit stayed un-registered for 2 years & I will admit it wasn't such a smart move on my part, because I had problems (NOT caused by sitting for 2 years----other owners I talked to were having the same problems too) that should have been taken care of under warranty, but they used every excuse in the book as to why they weren't going to help me. The dealer's attitude & that of the factory service rep that came to the dealer (on his regular rounds) to check into my car's problems tiurned me off forever on VW. I would never in this lifetime buy another VW product. I wouldn't accept one from them even if they gave it to me!!

I didn't want to be bitten again, so I did plenty of research here & at Mr. Kash's Prius Page & waited over a year for any of the production bugs of a new model to be worked out before even think'g about order'g my Prius. And when it came in, I put it on the road right away, even though it took me over a year to sell the car it replaced (the dealer wasn't intersted in taking it in trade because it was so old---even though in great shape with fairly high mileage on it).

But in the case of this Canadian gentleman, these are brand new cars (except for the demonstrator) that have been in possession of the dealer all along. He shouldn't be penalized because the dealer couldn't move its cars in a timely fashion. I believe that his warranty should start on his "In Service" date (the date the dealer puts the plates on the car & turns it over to the customer) just like for all the rest of us. I feel it shouldn't revert back to the date of manufacture if it gets sold after Jan 1st. That's just not fair to the customer. For any OTHER product that I can think of, your warranty always begins on the date of purchase shown on your receipt. (Again, it's in possession of the manufacturer's agent----the retailer----until it's sold to the customer).

Ken (in Bolton,Ct)

 

[Roger V]

Rickey,
Sorry, but with the exception of the dealership courtesy car mentioned, I believe you are mistaken on when the warranty begins. Please read the General Warranty Provisions in the Prius Owner's Warranty Information booklet. (page 7 in my '06 book.) Under "When Warranty begins," it states the following: "The warranty period begins on the vehicle's in-service date, which is the first date the vehicle is either delivered to an ultimate purchaser, leased, or used as a company car or demonstrator." I think that if the issue went to court, this statement would say it all. There is nothing in the entire booklet regarding date of manufacture, as there would have to be in order to be considered full disclosure. Even if you have something in your dealership covering this, it wouldn't take a first year law student long to present a winning case for the vehicle owner, IMHO. Perhaps a bit more research is in order?
Thank you, as always, for your input.
Roger

 

[C.Rickey Hirose]

But in the case of this Canadian gentleman, these are brand new cars (except for the demonstrator) that have been in possession of the dealer all along. He shouldn't be penalized because the dealer couldn't move its cars in a timely fashion. I believe that his warranty should start on his "In Service" date (the date the dealer puts the plates on the car & turns it over to the customer) just like for all the rest of us. I feel it shouldn't revert back to the date of manufacture if it gets sold after Jan 1st. That's just not fair to the customer. For any OTHER product that I can think of, your warranty always begins on the date of purchase shown on your receipt. (Again, it's in possession of the manufacturer's agent----the retailer----until it's sold to the customer).

Ken (in Bolton,Ct),

I do agree with you, it is not fair. However, all these years working with Toyota (25+Years) I have enountered in numerous occasion, talking to customers that purchased the vehicle IE: 9/91 but this vehicle was manufactured in 3/91.

Reason unknowst to me as to whay this Toyota was sitting in Dealers lot _Unsold_ for 6 month?, This customer has been told by service department, your warranty starts from date of manufacture.

Needless to say, but the warranty started in 3/91. Now, there is a solution though, Manufacturer can work out via the dealer to make the warranty starting date correct.

From 9/91 instead of 3/91 if sold the same year. It is up to the dealer if good faith warranty starting date from _Registration date_ instead of _Manufacturing date_..

However I do not know as to How, Toyota canada operates in this regard.

I would be in his shoes, will not buy a 2 years old _New Car_ unless my warranty starts from date of purchase instead of 2005. Need it in writing, from the Dealer plus_Toyota Canada. The dealer can dissapear, hope not but Toyota Motor for sure will be dominating the Automobile retail sceanery for a lon,long time to come.

*Edit by moderator mrv to fix quotes*

 

[Roger V]

Rickey,
Please read a warranty book!
Roger

 

[C.Rickey Hirose]

Rickey,
Sorry, but with the exception of the dealership courtesy car mentioned, I believe you are mistaken on when the warranty begins. Please read the General Warranty Provisions in the Prius Owner's Warranty Information booklet. (page 7 in my '06 book.) Under "When Warranty begins," it states the following: "The warranty period begins on the vehicle's in-service date, which is the first date the vehicle is either delivered to an ultimate purchaser, leased, or used as a company car or demonstrator." I think that if the issue went to court, this statement would say it all. There is nothing in the entire booklet regarding date of manufacture, as there would have to be in order to be considered full disclosure. Even if you have something in your dealership covering this, it wouldn't take a first year law student long to present a winning case for the vehicle owner, IMHO. Perhaps a bit more research is in order?
Thank you, as always, for your input.
Roger

Roger V,

Don't get me wrong. I'm with you. I'm just stating my real experiences in the past as to what happened when a vehicle is sold a year later.

I hope no body in this forum will have this problem. My writing is not the Bible you know, and no need for me to confuse the issue.

However, somebody has to be accountable if Toyota denies the warranty commenceing date on a 2 years old New vehicle. Perhaps, whomever buying that 2 years old Prius in canada has to do the research instead of me ?

I won't buy that 2 years old new car period. Unless I can get it real chaep, like 1/2 of Invoice price.

Just to gesstimate invoice amount, try 8.0% of MSRP list
this should give all the hold backs, Finance assistance,Adverts fee etc. If,
invoice structuring same as in the USA. Also I never believe what is printed. There is always a disclaimer somewhere... But of course, you should know more.....

 

[DanMan32]

What's the actual mileage on the vehicle? If under 100 miles, then Toyota should honor the sale date as warranty.

But then I can see one reason why Toyota might have issue with the 2 year discrepency, especially the 3 year full warranty. Some items deteriorate with time, whether the car is used or not. Rubber parts, batteries, sometimes fluids, etc. For batteries, its worse for them to sit unused. For the Prius, the traction battery is a big potential issue.

 

[Roger V]

I can see where they might not like it, but I think Toyota would still have to honor the full warranty, beginning with the in-service date. Other than with hot selling models, lots of dealers have cars sit in storage for months before they finally sell. The manufacturers can't arbitrarilly shorten the time frame of the warranty for those months. The only other solution I can see would be for Toyota to declare these cars as "used" and reimburse the dealer for the loss between the selling price and what the dealer originally paid for the vehicle. Even then, the dealer would lose on the "flooring" or interest paid or lost on the vehicle during that time the money was tied up in it. I'm not even sure this would work, because a smart buyer would want the remainder of the original warranty, which would have to begin with an in-service date, according to the warranty terms.

 

[DanMan32]

That would be valid for a car that sat on the lot for a few months, but a few YEARS?

 

[C.Rickey Hirose]

Rickey,
Please read a warranty book!
Roger

Roger,

I know, the Book says it but again, 2 years old new car: the warranty _does_not_ starts from date of purchase.

Why are we stating these disparities, have Matt in Canada talk to Toyota Canada to find out what Toyota canda says about the warranty commencing date.

We have a 350 days old 2006 highlander in stock it says 2006 model but it was manufactured in, 9/05. If we sell this 06 model vehicle now in December 06 the warranty starts in 06 model year. However an 05 model year is 2 years old used car market _Status_car.

For research sake, I will speak to the Toyota corporate warranty and ser vice people and will put this issue to rest as soon as I get the Corporate answer.

 

[barefootmatt]

The Toyota Canada website says the same thing: all warranties begin on the in-service date. I have no reason to believe that the vehicle has already been put in service, although I will certainly verify that with the dealer before buying.

I went today to try and close the deal, but the sales manager hadn't come in all day due to a sick child at home. I'm not sure when I'll get in there again (I think I'll wait until I've done some shopping for a loan), so keep the replies coming in the meantime! Thanks for all your help, everyone.

One more question: I understand that some of the 2005's need an ECU update. Can someone tell me what the ECU is, so I can sound like I know what I'm talking about when I ask if it's been done?

 

[mrv]

I know, the Book says it but again, 2 years old new car: the warranty _does_not_ starts from date of purchase.

Typically I've heard of US dealer TRAC/demo cars as already having an in-service date. Part of the negotiations on these vehicles is a reduced price for both their mileage gone and for the time gone on the warranty.

For my US 2001, I picked it up/bought it/paid for it on 2/2/2001. However, unfortunately for me, Toyota says that my in-service date is 1/31/2001, so that's when my warranty started. My dealer marked the car as sold 2 days early (to get it on the books in the previous month - it was on the lot that day, but they needed to do some prep work (install the missing CD player) before delivering it to me, hence the holdup), and by doing so screwed me out of 2 days of warranty coverage. (Time will get me long before mileage.)