[The.Tramp]

Q: What's the difference between gas and petrol?
A: Gas is much cheaper!

Apart from the joke, Americans ought to be happy that they are not taxed like us Europeans...

This morning we too have had another rise in the price of regular petrol: €1.24 per litre, that makes $5.999 per US gallon.

That's why I've made a parralel poll for us Europeans. Thus I invite the Europeans to answer the poll!

 

[hyperion]

Good for you Tramp! This should be enlightening and also make wonder why there hasn't been a greater hybrid market there since the arrival of the first hybrids, (is it a nationalistic thing or cost of) although I realize that some manufacturers still make two cylinder cars. (maybe) And of course in the "States" we have no "scooter" market at all. Was there any market for the first Honda sedans which were powered with motorcycle engines?
You may have pulled the plug on Pandoras box!

 

[Sanny]

Don't forget that Europe has a well-developed public transportation system, Hyperion. Perhaps there are ways to get around that don't involve private transport.

 

[The.Tramp]

Good for you Tramp! This should be enlightening and also make wonder why there hasn't been a greater hybrid market there since the arrival of the first hybrids, (is it a nationalistic thing or cost of) although I realize that some manufacturers still make two cylinder cars. (maybe) And of course in the "States" we have no "scooter" market at all. Was there any market for the first Honda sedans which were powered with motorcycle engines?
You may have pulled the plug on Pandoras box!

Thank you!

Hybrids did not have a market here because we have had diesels from the 1980's...

First diesels, then Turbo dielsels, then direct injction TD, which had the same consumption, if not better, than the Prius.

In the 1990's it was the best we could have: diesel was 30% cheaper than petrol and diesel cars were capable on bieng economical: my 1995 1921cc Turbo Diesel D.I. with 92Hp can do 63mpg at a steady 56mph or 48 mpg at a steady 75mph.

Now TDI's are much more powerful (from 120 to 160Hp) therefore the consumption went up (36 mpg at 75) and diesel is much more expensive (1.15 today againg 1.24 of petrol), and, since 80% of the sales are diesel cars, I presume that diesel price wil continue to rise as there is more demand compared to petrol.

That's why my bet (and money) did not go for a diesel but to a Prius, the only car capable to compete the consumption of a 1995 TDI...

 

[The.Tramp]

Don't forget that Europe has a well-developed public transportation system, Hyperion. Perhaps there are ways to get around that don't involve private transport.

Always depends WHERE in Europe!

Cause, here, in Italy, you don't go far with public transport.

Where I live, there is NO public trasport, that's why we NEED two cars (actually I use a scooter for my commuting)

 

[allenlux]

This page http://www.acl.lu/html/tour_info/prix_des_carburants.html from the Automobile Club of Luxembourg gives fuel prices all over Europe.

This table is normally updated every month, last update was 6 April.

 

[Tideland Prius]

I assume that's 63 imperial mpg? cause I think the Prius is rated at 65mpg combined.

<sigh> Where I live, diesels and petrol are more or less the same in price. The diesel costs ~$1,000 more than the equivalent petrol counterpart (using VW as an example) so even though sales of the VW diesel cars are up, I don't see the point. Also, diesel isn't available in every single station so you have to mark those that do =). Besides, our diesels here pollute more particulates and are still rather noisy (Listen to a Golf/Jetta TDI next time).

 

[The.Tramp]

I assume that's 63 imperial mpg? cause I think the Prius is rated at 65mpg combined.

No, I did my calculations assuming US gallon (3.78 litres).
Would do more to the imperial gallon (4.56 litres).
Or, 27 km per litre at constant 90 km/h.

Besides, our diesels here pollute more particulates and are still rather noisy (Listen to a Golf/Jetta TDI next time).

My father has the Jetta TDI (called Bora TDI, here) and it's much quieter than my Fiat Croma, which sounds like a lorry! That's one thing I adored about The prius: the silence!

Even here diesels are more expensive than their petrol counterpart, and the most discussed argument is "how many km to cover the extra price"?

Then, usually TDI's have bigger engines than their petrol counterpart, thus more road tax and higher insurance, especially when insurance companies know that who buy's diesel does more Km per year, therefore, more risks.

No problem in finding diesel in Europe, all truck and buses go on diesel, and 80% of all cars are diesels....

 

[The.Tramp]

This page http://www.acl.lu/html/tour_info/prix_des_carburants.html from the Automobile Club of Luxembourg gives fuel prices all over Europe.

This table is normally updated every month, last update was 6 April.

Very interesting, thank you very much, saved the link in my favourites, for the next time I will take a trip across Europe.

BTW, it's not true that Italy does not have 98... It's not easy to find, with only two brands distributing it (excluding Shell's V-Power) and it's 4 cents more expensinve than standard 95. V-Power is 12 cents more expensive.

 

[Hep]

How can I see the results without "voting"?

 

[The.Tramp]

How can I see the results without "voting"?

Up to now, 2 votes in the 1€11-1€20 range, and 2 votes in the 1€21-1€30 range.

But if you look at the Luxembourg link wyou have a pretty good idea on how the prices are in Europe.

 

[Astrowoman]

How can I see the results without "voting"?

Hit "show results" right below the poll! :wink:

 

[An04Prius]

A substantial per cent of the price in Europe is tax. The total price accomplishes the same "self rationing" effect that a comparable high price in U.S. would.

BUT, the tax money stays in the Eu country, to be used for public transit, conservation programs, alternative energy sources R&D, etc

If we do not add substantial tax to gas/pertrol/diesel in U.S., we stand the risk that gas prices will rise to match Eu (likely). But we will not "keep" any of the money for similar energy efforts.

In the current American culture, it would take an exceptionally courageous politician/pres/governor/congressperson to stand up & say...

...we are adding $2./gal tax to a gal of gas, in order to develop transit, alternative sources, & conservation programs.

 

[Tideland Prius]

[quote="Tideland Prius":kb2v3yvu]I assume that's 63 imperial mpg? cause I think the Prius is rated at 65mpg combined.

No, I did my calculations assuming US gallon (3.78 litres).
Would do more to the imperial gallon (4.56 litres).
Or, 27 km per litre at constant 90 km/h.

Besides, our diesels here pollute more particulates and are still rather noisy (Listen to a Golf/Jetta TDI next time).

My father has the Jetta TDI (called Bora TDI, here) and it's much quieter than my Fiat Croma, which sounds like a lorry! That's one thing I adored about The prius: the silence!

Even here diesels are more expensive than their petrol counterpart, and the most discussed argument is "how many km to cover the extra price"?

Then, usually TDI's have bigger engines than their petrol counterpart, thus more road tax and higher insurance, especially when insurance companies know that who buy's diesel does more Km per year, therefore, more risks.

No problem in finding diesel in Europe, all truck and buses go on diesel, and 80% of all cars are diesels....[/quote:kb2v3yvu]

Wow.. 63mpg US is pretty damn good! haha

 

[The.Tramp]

You don't mind if I correct you, do you? :wink:

A substantial per cent of the price in Europe is tax. The total price accomplishes the same "self rationing" effect that a comparable high price in U.S. would.

On fuel, the tax is not a percentage, but additionals. That is, tax is added as a fixed figure, that does not change with the price per gas. (apart from VAT) This does give some cushioning when the price of oil fluctuates:

Example:

Price of oil: $25 Price of US gas: $1 Price of IT petrol €0.9
Price of oil: $50 Price of US gas: $2 Price of IT petrol €1.2

BUT, the tax money stays in the Eu country, to be used for public transit, conservation programs, alternative energy sources R&D, etc

May I bore you with the REAL Italian "excuses" for adding additionals?
1935 - War in Abissinia - 0.001 €
1956 - Suez Crisis - 0.007 €
1963 - Vajont disaster - 0.005 €
1966 - Florence Flodding - 0.005 €
1968 - Earthquake in Belice - 0.01 €
1976 - Earthquake in Friuli - 0.05 €
1980 - Earthquake in Irpinia - 0.04 €
1982 - mission in Lebanon - 0.16 €
1996 - Mission in Bosnia - 0.11 €
2003 - Train driver's contracts - 0,02 €
2005 - Buses renewal - 0,05 €

As you can see, only the last two are directly involved with public transport, the previous two were to finance the wars (now over), the previous three where to finance natural disasters (well finished and reconstructed) and so on.... But, these additionals still remain and we do not really know where the money goes... it just goes!

The sum is 0.45 € per litre which is $2.18 per gallon, which, added to the price of gas, the 20% VAT is added to make the price we pay at the pump. (Yes we are taxed on taxes).

 

[An04Prius]

The.Tramp wrote:
You don't mind if I correct you, do you?



Not at all. I appreciate any additional info.

I did not mean to imply the tax was put on as a per cent of the sale price. I just meant that a large per centage of the money spent on petrol is tax money that stays in the country. I understand it is a fixed amount.

I believe other Eu countries may have different profiles for the use of petrol tax money, but I am not sure. I would appreciate hearing from other Eu countries as to use of the tax money.

At least even in Italy the money stays in the country. It is not paid out to oil supplier nations.

The same slight-of-hand happens in U.S. CA had a substantial tax approved, supposedly dedicated to roads & transit.

However, due to budget problems, an "emergency" provision of the law approving the tax allowed the govt to transfer the revenue to the general fund.

 

[The.Tramp]

Dear An04Pruis,

I'm afraid I do not know how th other EU countries excuse their taxes on fuel, bt as you can see from the table that the Luxembourg guy posted, they are pretty well aligned.

Today there was a news service on dear gas, where the Consumer's association where asking the government to reduce the fiscal pressure on fuel to reduce the high cost of production, stating that last year the gov. pocketed 1.350.000.000 € on fuel taxes.