[Daniel]

I once read that people who go into the woods with a gun are more likely to be killed by an animal than people who go in unarmed. The speculation is that a man with a gun feels that he is invincable and so takes additional chances, or that he acts aggressive, while someone without a gun has more respect for what's out there and is more at peace with nature.

By the same token, a gun makes you more belligerent, more likely to take chances. The criminal is all hyped up and prepared for his crime, and possibly on performance-enhancing drugs. Confront him with a gun and you are more likely to get shot than to shoot him. And of course, if you shoot and miss, or show your gun and don't shoot, you become his number-one target. And if there are two or more of them, your chances of opening fire and surviving are diminishingly small.

Finally, if the criminal is the only one with a gun, chances are he'll get some money and everyone will survive. Once someone starts shooting at him and bullets are flying, chances are bystanders will get killed.

Just my opinion.

 

[BIF]

...a gun makes you more belligerent, more likely to take chances...

I beg to disagree. People decide to become more belligerent, more likely to take chances. Consciously or not, it is a decision.

I believe that tough penalties and/or the criminal's knowledge of the risk of being killed by somebody defending themselves or their family does help people to decide to become less belligerent. And I believe that Pat's state of Oklahoma ultimately encourages and facilitates peace with its carry laws.

From what I've read, the wild west really wasn't all that wild. Partly because people had a strong faith, but also because they carried. And because they weren't afraid to defend themselves. They also knew the difference between right and wrong. There is some truth to the term, "an armed society is a polite society."

I give us more credit than that. An object doesn't "make" us more or less of anything. Our actions, dictated by our free will and our character are what "make" us who we are.

 

[Daniel]

BIF - Your impression of the West is certainly different than what I've read. Mark Twain describes the typical western town, I forget his exact words, but it was something like: A gambling house on every corner, a whiskey mill every 15 steps, and some talk of building a church. Houses of prostitution were also common, though Twain's wife wouldn't let him talk too much about that. "Faith" was the last thing on most peoples' minds.

Twain also says that relatively few people actually carried guns, and that the gunslingers killed each other far more often than they killed the unarmed folks. It had to do with proving who was the biggest, baddest guy around. You were much less likely to get killed if you did not carry a gun.

Mark Twain was a humorist, but he was also a newspaperman, and he reported life in the west the way it was.

 

[patrickg]

Daniel, Let me assure you that we have no state statute that requires you to carry a gon or if carying a gun to pull it in any particular circumstance. Thanks a lot for your vote that I am an idiot through and through.

Many these days know so little about guns or their effect on societal actions but profess much and predict the worst and characterize every person with a gun as GUN CRAZED. I am ceratinly old enough to be your father and maybe your grand father. I have never had an altercation on the street involving a gun. I asiduously avoid situations where I might. I also try to avoid F-5 tornados hence my master suite is a safe room. I wear my safety belt since way before they came standard in cars, installing them in mine and for friends.

As far as Oklahoma having problems (or other conceealed carry states for that matter) there were a plethora of dire predictions by proponents of gun confiscation (the likes of H. Clinton and the Brady bunch) who fortold a great carnage when gunfights ala the Luke Short novels would certainly break out all over those states. History has spoken. Years have passed. Crime fell. Misuse of firearms by folks with concealed carry lisc were EXTREMELY low to virtually nonexistant. The most noticible change was a lowering of other crime. Some feel that the criminals didn't know who might pull a gun to put a stop to their illegal activities so person on person crime fell. Some other crimes like theft rose but after all the poor misguided victims of society have to make a living someway.

I was taught to never "SHOW" (flourish?) a gun and to only pull it as a last resort when someones life was at stake and then to shoot as required to drop the target, knowing you have to accept the responsibility that you might kill them. Shooting to wound is BS. All law enforcement officers that I personally know are not at all unhappy with responsible citizens being armed. I have invitations to target shoot with sopme county sheriff deputies. The nearest chief of police has shot with me. Responsible armed citizens are considered a valuable asset.

I have been told by several police officers, elected and hired, that a citizen is advised that it is better to be tried by 12 than carried by six.

If any of the above doesn't mesh well with any preconceived notions, I'm sorry my karma ran over your dogma. I am an optimistic realist who hopes for the best but is prepared to deal with reality.

Note to BIF: Although I am part indian (small part) I am quite fair skinned (mostly Irish) and virtualy always wear long sleeves to avoid the sun. A baby glock is small and I am 6'2" so it is trivial to conceal. A small 5 shot hammerless revolver in .357 can be concealed quite easily, especially in my wife's purse.

I'm not sure I woiuld take Sam Clemmens as a historian.


Pat

 

[BIF]

Patrick:

Thank you SO MUCH for your well-written response, and for helping to set the record straight on the common misconceptions/misperceptions/lies told about legal firearm ownership by trained, law-abiding citizens.

I'm just going to leave it at that.



And because the last time I checked, this thread was about Prius and Lojack, I will re-assert my stance, just to try to get this thread back on track:

I would STILL buy my Lojack all over again. I would STILL buy the "early warning" part of it, all over again.

Yes, as a precaution against having a complete insurance loss. Yes, as a chance that I could get my car and/or its contents back before it got "chopped up." Most vehicles are recovered with little or no damage, save for a broken window or the like.

Yes, to possibly catch a repeat criminal.

And yes, regardless of whether or not the criminal towed my car, chopped it in my driveway and hauled it away in pieces, or stuck a gun in my face and took it from me with force.

It doesn't matter if I am present or absent, it doesn't matter whether I am harmed, unharmed, or even killed by the criminal. I want the chance to obtain justice, short of coming back from the grave to haunt the criminal. And don't you dare put that past me, either, dammit!

Finally, my disclaimer: No, I don't work for them. No, I'm not an investor in their stock. No, I don't sell their products. I'm a happy customer, nothing more.

 

[patrickg]

BIF, If LOJACK makes you feel better there is no need to defend it to anyone. Your having LOJACK doesn't harm anyone and you aren't being pushy or attacking anyone for not seeing the light and joining your movement.

Had I not moved out of A BIG TOWN (San Diego) I would probably have LOJACK. We really are out in the boonies and I don't think there is a good distributiion of LOJACK equipment on the part of law enforcement out here.

My truck has a very sophisticated alarm system with multiple interior radar zones etc. and it pages me if it is disturbed and I get an indication of what went off, reset status etc.

The system in the Prius will probably force a thief to tow or haul his booty. I have talked to tow truck drivers and garages who have told me about many cars towed in for repair with the alarm going for the whole trip. People are so used to alarms going off all the time in cities that it is like the little boy who cried wolf and no one pays attention.

Bottom line is that ultimately in an urban situation the Prius could probably be hauled away with impunity. LOJACK is the primary off the shelf system to ameliorate that situation. You may choose to just take your chances but don't do it based on a false sense of security offered by the sophisticated keyless system. It is like having a safe that is virtually impregnable to unauthorized access but is relatively easy to carry away. It would be hauled off and attacked at the thief's leisure.

To quote a line from the "Fire Sign Theater", as regards someone trying to take my Prius, "You have nothing to fear but me!"

Pat

 

[Daniel]

Patrick:

Please show me a post where I have called you or anyone else (other than G.W.) an idiot. And if you cannot show me where I have done so, then please do not accuse me of name-calling.

I do not know how old you are. My father died two years ago at the age of 88. If you are old enough to be my grandfather than you qualify for the Guiness Book of World Records.

For a variety of reasons, crime statistics have been dropping lately. This is true in concealed-carry states, in easy-gun states, and in hard-gun states. To attribute the drop in crime in your state to the concealed carry laws is a leap of faith.

Finally, I have not characterized you or anyone else who carries a gun as "gun crazed." I have expressed my opinion that resorting to the use of a gun reduces, rather than increases, your chance of survival, and that the possession of a gun influences your behavior against caution. An analogous situation is that most people are more likely to get stuck while driving a 4WD, because they will attempt to get through places they would not attempt with a 2WD car. (Note, too, that not every bullet hits its mark.)

And Mark Twain provided some of the best and most reliable descriptions we have of the places he lived, including the Mississippi River and the California gold-rush towns, among others. The only thing missing (unfortunately) is the dirty language, which his wife would not permit him to include in his books.

 

[patrickg]

Daniel, I have a great idea! Lets just agree that we aren't congruent in our thinking on all matters and get on with life. For the most part I agree with your posts as well reasoned, especilly when they stray onto Prius topics. If you are keeping score then decalre victory. Boy you showed me. WOW!

Pat

 

[moocatdog]

lawyers, guns & money (OT)

Note: this message is off-topic.

Risking a snide retort, anyone interested in gun safety in general, and Oklahoma in particular, might note these statistics compiled by the Oklahoma State Department of Health:

The firearm death rate for Oklahoma is 13% higher than the U.S. rate.

An average of 500 Oklahomans die every year as a result of firearms; 93% of [these] firearm deaths are intentional (suicides 62% and homicides 31%).

In Oklahoma, firearms are the second leading cause of injury deaths (automobile accidents are the first) accounting for one of every five injury deaths. Each year, 500 Oklahomans die by firearms. It is estimated that for every firearm death there are five to seven injuries by firearms. For Oklahoma that would mean 2,500 - 3,500 nonfatal firearm injuries a year.

Over half (52%) of Oklahomans surveyed had a firearm in their home or vehicle. In Oklahoma, children younger than 15 years of age are at the highest risk of accidental firearm death. A study of accidental firearm death of Oklahoman children found that 85% of the shootings occurred in the home and of those, 85% occurred with other children present.

Of the 30,000 deaths by firearm in the United States each year, over half (55%) are suicides; the remainder are homicides (38%), accidental (4%), and legal intervention/undetermined intent (2%). It is estimated that one half of all American households own at least one firearm; 45% of households with firearms own handguns. One study found that a gun kept in the home for protection was 12 times more likely to kill a family member or acquaintance than an intruder. Another study found that teenagers are more likely to commit suicide if a firearm is kept in the home. Older children 15-19 years of age are at the highest risk of accidental firearm death.

It is also interesting to note that Oklahoma, with its firearm related death statistic 13% higer than the national average, is also a state with no current statutes relevant to so-called Saturday Night Specials, large capacity ammunition magazines, licensing or registration, locking devices, assault weapons, background checks for private sales, or waitng periods.

Also, Oklahoma restricts those with concealed weapon permits from carrying their weapon into any city, town, county, state or federal building or structure; meetings of city, town, county, state or federal officials, school board members, legislative members or any other elected or appointed officials; elementary, secondary, college or university campuses; sports arenas during a professional sporting event; para-mutuel wagering establishments; or any business with the primary purpose of selling alchoholic beverages.

In other words, if a jealous drunk in a bar tries to stab his pregnant wife in the heart, you're out of luck. However, if you observe a destitute elderly woman stealing a can of human-grade catfood from Wal-Mart, go ahead and take her down.

Drive happy,
Moo

 

[BIF]

(note to self: send that check in, join up, and sign up for training ASAP)

I'm with Patrick on this one, folks.

Can we please now "stray back" into Prius territory? It's more fun there. Thanks.

 

[kenlacy]

Moocatdog - just curious, how many of the shooting deaths in OK were justified homicide - ie - deserving criminal getting shot and killed? It makes all the difference in the world statistics wise.

 

[hudel]

Causes of death in USA last year

Over 45,000 thousand deaths each year are the result of automobile accidents (only 1 caused by a Prius). Many times higher than fire arms. And 95% of those killed by cars are not criminals. While most deaths by fire arms involve criminals.

But over 3 million deaths each year is result of complications from over eating...perhaps we should make being fat a criminal offense. That's the best way to stop unnecessary deaths and to improve and provide the "great society" all you liberals want...

...remember safety first...don't stuff your pie hole…

 

[BIF]

Okay, since we are unable or unwilling to "stray" back to Prius topics, then I'll just think out loud for a minute here...so don't mind me, I talk to myself a lot...

I see that it's only $35.00 for a 1-year membership.

If you think you'll live for more than 21.42 years (aww, hell, let's say 21 and a half years), then the $750 lifetime membership would be a good deal.

Of course, the best deal is for those of you 65+ or if you're a disabled veteran. Only $375.00. But for the latter, I think a distinguished lifetime membership should probably be free...but that's just me. Anyhow:

https://membership.nrahq.org/forms/signup.asp

And of course, nobody should bear arms without firearm safety education. Here's the education page:

http://www.nrahq.org/education/index.asp

And the home page is here:

http://www.nra.org/

I'm pleasantly impressed at the completeness and the professionalism of the NRA website. But then, I've always known them to be a professional organization. I just haven't been a member. Yet.

I think I'll sign up and see about taking a class before school starts this fall. I did have the training when I was a Boy Scout, but that was a few decades ago. A refresher would most certainly be a good idea. In fact, I think of training as a "must."

This post was done only partly "tongue in cheek." In actuality, this entire thread, and most particularly the "passive" posts here and elsewhere have made me think that maybe I'm not being consistent if I don't at least get the membership and the training. And I would be particularly hypocritical if I don't vote for candidates who support the 2nd Amendment.

I believe in peace through strength. Presidents Lincoln, Truman, and Reagan proved it, and President Bush 43 has re-proved it.

Anyhow, I'm done thinking out loud now. Thanks, folks! I really appreciate you for making me rethink this subject thoroughly. I'll keep you posted on how it's going, but for now, I'm tired of all the politics talk. Some of you are really bottling up far too much angst, and it's starting to seep out of the cracks. :shock:

Be careful, or it will shorten your life expectancies!

I'm going to go have some fun now. I hope you all do, too.

 

[AgentElrond]

I did have the training when I was a Boy Scout, but that was a few decades ago.

Same here; in my case, I think it was Camp Northwoods (sp?) in WI.

 

[Daniel]

Re: lawyers, guns & money (OT)

One study found that a gun kept in the home for protection was 12 times more likely to kill a family member or acquaintance than an intruder. Another study found that teenagers are more likely to commit suicide if a firearm is kept in the home.

I really think this says it all. A gun bought to protect your family is 12 times more likely to kill a member of your family.

F.D.R. said, "We have nothing to fear but fear itself." But today, fear and hatred of criminals (promoted by government to induce us to give up ever more of our civil liberties) drives us to actions which, while intended to protect us, actually make us less safe.

(Sorry, Patrick. As long as the moderators permit us to discuss important social topics, I think it's worthwhile to do so.)

 

[patrickg]

Moocatdog - just curious, how many of the shooting deaths in OK were justified homicide - ie - deserving criminal getting shot and killed? It makes all the difference in the world statistics wise.

Good question Ken! Also in how many of the deaths were the shooters lisc for concealed carry? Similarly in all gun crime in Oklahoma what percent involved folks lisc for concealed carry? As is FEATURED by some, just about anyone in Oklahoma can get a gun but how many with a lisc for concealed carry commit any gun crimes?

To put an automotive slant on it how many lisc drivers are scofflaws as illustrated by topics on this forum? How many lisc drivers are involved in preventable accidents? Now conisder how many trained professional drivers with a higher class lisc who drive automobiles professionally (not taxis)are involved in accidents?

These should make yo go (in the words of Arsenio Hall) hmmmm.

Pat

 

[kenlacy]

One study found that a gun kept in the home for protection was 12 times more likely to kill a family member or acquaintance than an intruder. Another study found that teenagers are more likely to commit suicide if a firearm is kept in the home.

One study, one study - good thing we don't base our life decisions on studies that are typically flawed.

With owning a gun comes a lot of responsibility, as does a car, 4-wheeler, riding lawn mower.

Did you know that more people are killed and injured by riding lawn mowers than push mowers.

As for the suicide, was anyone able to ask the person who commited suicide if they would have chose another route had the gun not been there. Obviously not, but I think you would agree that they would have.

 

[moocatdog]

Can we please now "stray back" into Prius territory?

As long as people are willing to engage in relatively polite discourse I see nothing wrong with conversing off-topic. Due to your frequent participation (8 messages in this thread alone; 480 posts since joining in mid-April) it would appear that you agree.

Moocatdog - just curious, how many of the shooting deaths in OK were justified homicide - ie - deserving criminal getting shot and killed? It makes all the difference in the world statistics wise.

The report I found doesn't use that terminology. It does state that, nationally, 2% of firearm deaths are categorized as "legal intervention/undetermined intent." Is 98% to 2% the difference you were looking to find?

Over 45,000 thousand deaths each year are the result of automobile accidents (only 1 caused by a Prius). Many times higher than fire arms. And 95% of those killed by cars are not criminals. While most deaths by fire arms involve criminals.

Actually, as indicated in my post, a strong majority of deaths by firearm in Oklahoma (and nationally) are by suicide. As is also indicated in my post, the number of firearm related suicides in Oklahoma is double the number of firearm related homicides (62%/31%).

... Also in how many of the deaths were the shooters lisc for concealed carry?

That number was not indicated in the information that I found. However, it would seem reasonable that many of the of the 2% of Oklahoma firearm deaths defined as "legal intervention/undetermined intent" would qualify. On the flip side, since those with concealed carry licenses are subject to the same human foibles as everyone else (jealousy, rage, greed) it would also seem reasonable to attribute a portion of the homicides to licensed carriers as well.

... good thing we don't base our life decisions on studies that are typically flawed.

IMO, basing any important decision on a single source of information, be it a statistic or a personal experience, is foolish. Personally, I try to use a combination of common sense and research.

... was anyone able to ask the person who commited suicide if they would have chose another route had the gun not been there. Obviously not, but I think you would agree that they would have.

I have no way of predicting what might have happened in the scenario you describe. However, if even one suicide, lacking access to a firearm, managed to start their life anew would it be worth giving up your guns? What if that potential suicide were your child?

Hmmmm, indeed.

Moo

 

[kenlacy]

I have no way of predicting what might have happened in the scenario you describe. However, if even one suicide, lacking access to a firearm, managed to start their life anew would it be worth giving up your guns? What if that potential suicide were your child?

If one of my sons or daughters committed suicide with a gun - I wouldn't be blaming the gun, I would be blaming myself. They are my responsibility, and if they got to that point, it was because I failed. Even If I knew that they wouldn't have without a gun, I still wouldn't tell everyone else in our country to suffer for my mistake.

Unfortunately another huge problem with our society is people finding anything but themselves to blame for problems in their lives, problems with their kids and so on.

Responsibility is being thrown out the door along with everything else.

The report I found doesn't use that terminology. It does state that, nationally, 2% of firearm deaths are categorized as "legal intervention/undetermined intent." Is 98% to 2% the difference you were looking to find?

Isn't it funny how "studies" leave out important information that goes against the idealogy of the group behind the study. And I am not just aiming this at the left, it is done on the right as well. That is why it is hard to fully back up any study done by anyone other than yourself.

My immediate family, extended family and nearly any family I can think of close to mine, have guns, hunt, target shoot and so on. No deaths yet in 33 years due to guns. Other than natural causes, there have been 5 vehicle deaths (none invloving SUV's , 1 homocide (beating death) and no suicides.

My study shows they are pretty safe as long as they are taken seriously.

 

[moocatdog]

If one of my sons or daughters committed suicide with a gun - I wouldn't be blaming the gun, I would be blaming myself. They are my responsibility, and if they got to that point, it was because I failed. Even If I knew that they wouldn't have without a gun, I still wouldn't tell everyone else in our country to suffer for my mistake.

I hope you never have to prove your theory.

Isn't it funny how "studies" leave out important information that goes against the idealogy of the group behind the study. And I am not just aiming this at the left, it is done on the right as well. That is why it is hard to fully back up any study done by anyone other than yourself.

The statistic was there, the terminology was different. So far you haven't provided any studies supporting anything you've written here--everything is based on your life experience.

My immediate family, extended family and nearly any family I can think of close to mine, have guns, hunt, target shoot and so on. No deaths yet in 33 years due to guns. Other than natural causes, there have been 5 vehicle deaths (none invloving SUV's , 1 homocide (beating death) and no suicides. My study shows they are pretty safe as long as they are taken seriously.

I sincerely hope your good fortune continues. There's one little thing in that paragraph that I find curious. Thirty-three years? Are you saying that the great wisdom of your heralded life experiences comes from a grand total of 33 years?

The group may rejoice; I'm speechless.

Moo