Toyota Prius Forum banner

1 - 20 of 225 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
457 Posts
I would hope that no rational American takes any pleasure in this.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,668 Posts
This article, and another I read like it, called to mind the term "vultures." It's like there's blood lust or somesuch. No, no pleasure here... :(
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
455 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
I don't really see it happening personally.

Although they have already backed away from their plan to stop with the heavy sales incentives, after what, a month and a half?

But really, this problem they are in is the result of decades and decades of incredibly poor management.

They may just use it to renegotiate contracts with workers. Or declare BK so they can cancel certain contracts with the UAW and dump their underfunded pension plan which is costing them billions.

Pleasure is one thing, and I certainly feel bad for the people affected who had no bearing on the current woes of the company. But the company has been making crap for decades, so there is a certain pleasure in a big bohemeth getting its come uppance.

Let's remember, at one time they were the largest company in the world, by a large margin. Not car company, any company. They also had a 60% market share in the US and were the envy of the world's auto makers. They pissed this HUGE advantage away. They could have hired the world's best engineers, the best designers, could have squeezed the best prices and quality product from suppliers. They could have offered a superior product at a lower price -- instead they offered an inferior product at the same price. And management lined its pockets with millions of $$. Well the chickens have come home to roost -- and they are pissed! Unfortunately the people who are really to blame, are long gone.

What is sad is if they do declare BK and void their pension plan, is all those pensioners who will be F*&[email protected]#. Whose only crime was going to the factory every day for 20-30 years and screwing a bumper on to a car for 8 hours a day, 50 weeks a year.

Spike
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,878 Posts
#1. If any pension plans are voided they are dumped onto the government plan especially designed for this. The pensioner gets pennies on the dollar but the government takes another twenty billion dollar hit in the deficit. You can critisise GM, United Air Lines, in fact most of the old majors for negotiating contracts which were morally correct during the "good times" and encouraged by the government. They were good for the country, the company who retained employees until retirement age and the employees who accepted the benefit package as a reason to stick with their employers.
This all worked until the government changed it's attitude and morals. Let the "free market" prevail and most foreign companies jumped right in and took over and now the government is talking of giving tax incentives back to companies to get them to resume offering benefit packages back to their employees. Watch out "wall-mart" The cost of doing business will have to go up.
Even the discount companies like Soutrhwest airlines are in a fight. Jet Blue has just announced plans for full short haul US service. , Jet Blue who got extremely low rates for their government (French) subsidised fleet of Air Buses has now signed a contract with a Brazilian government subsidised manufacturer for a fleet of short haul jets.
GM management wasn't at fault when they negotiated the contracts with their employees. They were adhering to the norm then of American business. My gosh, the US procurment dept has just ordered several French made helicopters for the Presidents use. I would hope that their muslim employees are happy ones, just as I wish the same for those on the "Air-Bus" lines.
And how do you like the idea of spending taxpayers dollars to enlarge several of our major airports around the country so that the new "JUMBO" airbus who can't meet our present requirements can operate here.
Boeing has had no problem designing for our present runways!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
457 Posts
But really, this problem they are in is the result of decades and decades of incredibly poor management.
*********************************************************
I couldn't agree more. You're 100% (well.. 95%) right.
But there's a lot more folks than the old guy screwing on the bumpers that stand to get hurt as the US auto industry star fades.
For example:There are hundreds of smaller US shops who do piece work for GM. Thousands of sales and service people who are sweating next month's house payment. In many ways, GM (and Ford and Chrysler) were America. Do we want to be supporting these people on unemployment..into their old age..? Will anyone gloat because they watched it happen. It happened to the steel industry not that long ago. Our air transportation system, once the envy of the world, is going broke.
I personally think Bush Jr. made a bad call in Iraq but I sure don't hope our guys get creamed and run out of town. I don't want to see The Prez eating the, "I told you so's" as the body count rises.
I see GM in a similar if certainly less tragic light. Maybe that's a little over the top but there are several ways to die.
I'd love to see our US car builders making the best stuff in the world and selling em by the millions. I don't want to dance on their graves.
Forgive me for pontificating... When you hit 75, you start lookng back down the road at what once was...and wonder where it went...
I really enjoy my Prius. It's the best car since my 27 Studebaker. 8) ~JD~
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
455 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
hyperion said:
#1. If any pension plans are voided they are dumped onto the government plan especially designed for this. The pensioner gets pennies on the dollar but the government takes another twenty billion dollar hit in the deficit. You can critisise GM, United Air Lines, in fact most of the old majors for negotiating contracts which were morally correct during the "good times" and encouraged by the government. They were good for the country, the company who retained employees until retirement age and the employees who accepted the benefit package as a reason to stick with their employers.
This all worked until the government changed it's attitude and morals. Let the "free market" prevail and most foreign companies jumped right in and took over and now the government is talking of giving tax incentives back to companies to get them to resume offering benefit packages back to their employees. Watch out "wall-mart" The cost of doing business will have to go up.
Even the discount companies like Soutrhwest airlines are in a fight. Jet Blue has just announced plans for full short haul US service. , Jet Blue who got extremely low rates for their government (French) subsidised fleet of Air Buses has now signed a contract with a Brazilian government subsidised manufacturer for a fleet of short haul jets.
GM management wasn't at fault when they negotiated the contracts with their employees. They were adhering to the norm then of American business. My gosh, the US procurment dept has just ordered several French made helicopters for the Presidents use. I would hope that their muslim employees are happy ones, just as I wish the same for those on the "Air-Bus" lines.
And how do you like the idea of spending taxpayers dollars to enlarge several of our major airports around the country so that the new "JUMBO" airbus who can't meet our present requirements can operate here.
Boeing has had no problem designing for our present runways!

~


Well yes, and that government agency is in serious financial trouble.

http://money.cnn.com/2005/11/16/retirem ... /index.htm

And the pensioner will feel the hit. And far too many of our elderly are far to close to the financial edge. Shameful really.

I think with GM, the pension thing has nothing to do with moral right at the time. 2 things, 1) American union factory workers priced themselves right out of jobs and 2) If GM still had the market share, they would be fine, they would have enough coming in to cover the obligation, the problem is they are very top heavy right now in pensioners. I think, but am not sure I read that in the US they have more pensioners than employees

in terms of the gvmn't changing the morals, weren't we always a capatalistic economy?

Southwest is doing fine last I heard. They were weathering the post 9/11 world better than any of the old dogs.

And the companies that get money from their government, pay more in taxes, the money goes around, it doesn't just start and end anywhere. And you don't think our government subsidizes farming? or the defense industry?

And why is it so important to you what the religeous beleifs are of anyone working for a company in France?

And I know around here our airports around here don't use tax dollars to fund expansions. They get the money from gate fees, which they get from the airlines, which they get from you. In the end it is the same of course, but you chose to fly, you don't really chose to pay taxes.

Not to into the airplane scene, but doesn't the new AirBus offer significant savings to the airlines in terms of operational costs? Making the expanded runways make more sense in the long run.

JDavies said:
But really, this problem they are in is the result of decades and decades of incredibly poor management.
*********************************************************
I couldn't agree more. You're 100% (well.. 95%) right.
But there's a lot more folks than the old guy screwing on the bumpers that stand to get hurt as the US auto industry star fades.
For example:There are hundreds of smaller US shops who do piece work for GM. Thousands of sales and service people who are sweating next month's house payment. In many ways, GM (and Ford and Chrysler) were America. Do we want to be supporting these people on unemployment..into their old age..? Will anyone gloat because they watched it happen. It happened to the steel industry not that long ago. Our air transportation system, once the envy of the world, is going broke.
I personally think Bush Jr. made a bad call in Iraq but I sure don't hope our guys get creamed and run out of town. I don't want to see The Prez eating the, "I told you so's" as the body count rises.
I see GM in a similar if certainly less tragic light. Maybe that's a little over the top but there are several ways to die.
I'd love to see our US car builders making the best stuff in the world and selling em by the millions. I don't want to dance on their graves.
Forgive me for pontificating... When you hit 75, you start lookng back down the road at what once was...and wonder where it went...
I really enjoy my Prius. It's the best car since my 27 Studebaker. 8) ~JD~
Yes, there is a lot more down the road than the GM pensioner, but I tend to go with the idea that the mney will spread out. We as a nation, and even the car buying world aren't going to shrink. IF GM really did go bust, those car purchasers aren't going to go away, they will just buy some other brand -- maybe a Ford with a falling gas tank (http://www.cnn.com/2005/AUTOS/11/16/for ... ml?cnn=yes). So those vendors are still going to be selling parts, they have to compete on a different level, but, heck if they are here, they should have a leg up for the factories here.
The service personell will still work, the dealerships will still thrive, just with different makes. Well, the repair shops will suffer, with everyone driving more reliable cars :D
So I don't think in the long run, across the US, unemployment would be significantly different. Maybe in pockets around a specific plants, but not everywhere. And even that might be marginal, it seems like fewer and fewer US makes are built here and more and more foreign makes are.

And you are right, at one time GM was America. And the fact that they pissed it away, pisses me off. But I don't think they are America any more.

The steel industry, got Bushy to give them protection -- even though no one thought it would be enough for a long term solution, and it defied international trade law (but then he has shown a certain distain for international law). He did it to look good. But there were hundreds of other people affected. Companies that bought steel, then paid a higher rate for it. They didn't give raises, or didn't hire more people, or didn't buy new equipment and some got into trouble financially because of it. Those that had long term sales contracts with fixed prices on their products. Ironically, many of them were automotive suppliers.

The airlines to me are a victim of their own doing and 9/11 of course, which killed them. But they set up a system were people didn't trust them, similar to the car industry. You could be next to someone on the plane, and have paid 3 times as much for your ticket. Prices change at all times, from moment to moment. With no rhyme or reason. That is why Jet Blue and Southwest are so successful. Less BS. When I go home to NY, they don't care if I stay for 3 days or 8 days, the others do. They don't care if I buy the ticket 2 days before I fly or 2 years.

When I had to go home on a rush for a funeral, the airlines tell you they have berevement fares, 50% off. Call them up and get the quickest flight I can reasonably make and Jeez, it is like $600. OK, 50%, means $300, that is reasonable. Oh no, that is a SuperSaver discounted price ($600 is the SuperSaver discounted price?!) for the berevement discount I have to buy the full priced regular fare. Which by the way that haven't sold anyone on since 1954. That price was like $1,700. Half off wasn't enough to make it less than what I could get just calling them and saying, "hey, I need to go to NY tonight; no reason." Thanks for the sympathy, I'll take the SuperSaver regular fare.
When I really beat up the poor ticket agent about it (not her fault but I was not in a good mood). She offered that by paying more, and getting the "regular fare" I could return it if I didn't go, unlike the SuperSaver fare which was non-refundable non exchangeble. So, if my cousin really wasn't dead, I guess, I would be able to get my $$ back. Thanks!

Bush made a HUGE error in Iraq on so many levels; just HUGE. We should have never gone in -- never.

And yes, they were once the envy of the world. Caddy in particular. But thay have alienated a HUGE portion on my generation. And world wide I don't see them having any cachet at all anymore -- none. They sell in the US, Canada, and Mexico as far as I know; everywhere else they are a niche player. In some parts of the world to buy US, means you are supporting terroism and rampant imperialism.

On a related note, one of the car mags -- don't remember which one. Just did a review of 4 vanilla family sedans, the Accord, the Camry, the Hyundai Sonata (definately a Hyundai, maybe not the Sonata) and the Ford Fusion. Out of the 4, only one is not built in the US. Which one? The Hyundai? No, that is built here. The Accord? BZZZT, wrong again. The Ford is the only one not built here in the US. The figgin Ford.

Spike
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,878 Posts
You certainly are of a different generation. And it is the government who pays for airport expansion and as far as economics the new Airbus has been ordered by only two US airlines who believe it to be viable. Fed Express and UPS. The only others that will be using our runways are Foreign.
The deal is 18 wheelers have to be built to safely use our road systems. You would laugh if you heard the Fed's were going to go thru a reconstruction plan to strengthen our entire highway system so that the trucking industry could put twenty four wheelers on our roads. The French knew our airport limits, just as does Boeing and took the cheap way of circumventing them with the thought that if they built it we would make it viable.
There has already been one instance of a terrorist attempting to sabotage an Israeli Air Bus during the manufacturing process. Do you really believe the French have a good security system?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
134 Posts
JDavies said:
I personally think Bush Jr. made a bad call in Iraq but I sure don't hope our guys get creamed and run out of town. I don't want to see The Prez eating the, "I told you so's" as the body count rises.
I'd love to see our US car builders making the best stuff in the world and selling em by the millions. I don't want to dance on their graves.
I certainly don't want to dance on their graves, but we also can't just keep going in the same direction. Whatever happened to the American way of fixing things that aren't working? The first thing that needs to happen is to recognize that things aren't working. That's what GM needs to do, that they still have refused to, that many Americans are turning a blind eye to. GM refuse to acknowledge the bad management decisions and the bad strategic decisons that were made. Refuse to see that it's the mediocre products and service that is turning away customers. Instead, they blame it on unions and unfair foreign competition. I'm not saying those don't exist, but they are not the sole reason for the current situation.

hyperion mentioned "free market". Let's just say France isn't the only country who unfairly subsidizes a domestic company. I doubt the market is that free and competitive when almost all government offices and services have contracts with US car makers to only buy US cars. What would Ford's sales number be if every single police station in the country didn't buy Ford cars as police cars? If every single fire station in the country didn't contract to use GM trucks? What would the sales figure be if every single individual police/fire dept. gets to decide what type of car they would like?

I completely agree with spike:
Pleasure is one thing, and I certainly feel bad for the people affected who had no bearing on the current woes of the company. But the company has been making crap for decades, so there is a certain pleasure in a big bohemeth getting its come uppance.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,878 Posts
This may be a new generation with mixed knowledge of the American car market which I believe makes as good a product as any made elsewhere in the world.
If my local police dept put in a request for a Japanese or German car ect; I know the police chief would be replaced at the next town meeting. What the heck is the matter with folks who on a secondary thread on this site claim that their previous eight cars were all Japanese and they were all reliable. That I have no doubt about but I could say from personal experiance that the last eight American cars I have owned have been likewise. Some here have never owned an American car but they down them like they have the plague. Fortunately it is still possible to live in some parts of the country where the American car is still the norm. And if the Ford's and Chevies couldn't do the job I'm sure the governmesnt agencies would find out why.
Most of the contracts written between the unions and management were a two way street and brought this country to a position of being the best place in the world to live. These were all written when times were good, and there was little foreign competition. Those contracts gave the workers a salary that enabled their wives to remain home and raise the kids along with providing security for the future. Now the fiddler is playing, but don't blame the management for doing what was the right way to do things at the time. Their problem is they have been in the business for fifty years prior to their competitors.
You want to change all that for a cheaper personal way of life, so be it. The companies that have grown supporting a large employee base can fail because of the inability to compete but a good way of life is going down the tubes with them.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
110 Posts
dont count them out yet. not only do i own one of the best and most difficult cars to get (our beloved prius of course) but i have on order the car even more difficult to get the pontiac solstice. it seems to me that gm has screwed up royally but on the other hand is doing innovative things to get back in the game. have faith. 8)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
548 Posts
hyperion said:
What the heck is the matter with folks who on a secondary thread on this site claim that their previous eight cars were all Japanese and they were all reliable. That I have no doubt about but I could say from personal experiance that the last eight American cars I have owned have been likewise.
My Prius was my first Japanese car, and probably my last. I've had 2 American and one German car prior to the Prius, and guess who comes in dead last in reliability and fit and finish. The Prius. :)

My next car will probably be the Fusion Hybrid. Mmm... adjustable seats.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
134 Posts
hyperion said:
And if the Ford's and Chevies couldn't do the job I'm sure the governmesnt agencies would find out why.
no, i'm sure government agencies would figure out a way to bail out the companies instead. Just like the government have to bail out the airlines, the oil companies, the telecoms, corporate farmers, drug industry, et. al. Foreign countries aren't the only countries practicing protectionism.
hyperion said:
Now the fiddler is playing, but don't blame the management for doing what was the right way to do things at the time.
That is not what I am blaiming management for. I am blaming management for sitting on their laurels once they have a steady cash cow. I blame management for not innovating once the company is in comfort zone of producing certain cars. I blame management for making 17 lines of the same car, and losing the American will and drive that made the company great to begin with. I blame a management who's first response to foreign competition is to deride and belittle them, instead of taking them seriously and actually compete with them. I can still remember Ford proclaiming that hybrids will be a niche market, only to find itself moving up it's Mercury line, cutting prices on hybrids, and preparing 3 more lines of hybrids once Toyota went out and proved that there is a market for hybrids. I can still see the American car industry laughing at the Scion line, only to find itself playing catchup for the young car enthusiast market. Once again, because Toyota went out and created a market that once wasn't there.

That's supposed to be the American's job. Americans are the ones who go out there and invent/create a new market. We are supposed to be the ones who innovate. But instead, we churn out SUV after SUV, "Because that's what the market want". We were so busy making what the market want, we forgot to go find new markets, leaving it up to the competitors.
hyperion said:
Their problem is they have been in the business for fifty years prior to their competitors.
And I will remind hyperion that the same car companies we are competing against are the same ones we fought against in WWII. Whether they be Japanese or German, we fought and destroyed them. Yet, somehow they are now beating down our door? Think about THAT, while you drive in your American built cars.

Oh, wait. They were built in Mexico. my bad.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
548 Posts
WayneBruce said:
I can still see the American car industry laughing at the Scion line, only to find itself playing catchup for the young car enthusiast market.
Actually, Wayne, Toyota was late to the party with Scion. They had to create a separate car line to compete with the domestics (think Neon SXT, which is a fire breather) and the other imports (Civic) because Toyota had such a frumpy image that the young enthusiast market wouldn't touch them with a 10 foot pole.

It's too bad that the Scion line is so dirty tho... nothing better than ULEV?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9 Posts
Well, then why not sell the Prius if you're so unhappy with it and buy another car. How about the Escape? It's American and it would get you through until the Fusion is out! Got to love those adustable seats, it would sure be worth it huh? :)

Jonnycat26 said:
hyperion said:
What the heck is the matter with folks who on a secondary thread on this site claim that their previous eight cars were all Japanese and they were all reliable. That I have no doubt about but I could say from personal experiance that the last eight American cars I have owned have been likewise.
My Prius was my first Japanese car, and probably my last. I've had 2 American and one German car prior to the Prius, and guess who comes in dead last in reliability and fit and finish. The Prius. :)

My next car will probably be the Fusion Hybrid. Mmm... adjustable seats.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
548 Posts
prius2006rocks said:
Well, then why not sell the Prius if you're so unhappy with it and buy another car. How about the Escape? It's American and it would get you through until the Fusion is out! Got to love those adustable seats, it would sure be worth it huh? :)
I value my spine. :p

And the Prius is good for what it is, a good commuter econobox with some gadgets.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
199 Posts
The Wrong People always pay

There was once a time that I was very proud to be an American and felt that our country was respected but that day is long gone. We have become the bullies of the world, sticking our noses in where it does not belong. We are rude in our driving habits, road rage and other forms of revenge take precedence over kindness and courtesy. We are more gluttonous than ever with our Hummers, in-car video, heated seats, etc.

Oil companies sat back and raised prices during a critical period when a price roll back would have been the right thing to do, then they let us know just how much money they made while the southern states were suffering and people were dying.

Sempra Energy, Enron, GM, these companies have hung themselves with greed and poor management. UCSD recently announced that although certain professors were being listed as being paid $120,000 (looks real good from my $50,000 view) they were actually getting 750,000+ with bonuses and such!! All this while raising rates for the people they are supposed to be serving. We must look past our own pockets to what is best for America.

America has to move away from the corporate model where CEO's and upper management get ridiculous amounts of money for the wrong reasons. If we do not invest in invention and development of products then we cannot survive. And as far as buying a Japanese car..... where the heck do you think all the crap at WalMart comes from??!?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,878 Posts
You just don't get it. The U.S. government financed the regrowth of the Japanese and German car industry and the present German industry makes exacrtly the same models as the U.S. because that's what the majority of the American buyer wanted to purchase to drive.
All the other models were out there but the numbers purchased point to the product wanted, The Japanese are small people who drive very short distances and built cars for this market and were delighted to find a limited secondary market in the U.S. for lighter, inexpensive economy cars. When they realized the market they too have offered large SUV's and pick-up trucks.
Don't even suggest that the American car industry is responsible for the large numbers of low milage Sport Utility Vehicles on our roads. They met the demand of the American market and with the price of gas up the street at $2.09 I'm sure they will continue so. In fact the crowds at the recent auto show were all interested in th ALL Wheel Drive vehicles and they get several miles less per gallon than the SUV's.
You seem to want to blame the American auto industry for the hated word in your vocabulary SUV. when they were just supplying the unit wanted by full-sized American families.
My problem only with the Japanese hybrids and so far the one American, is except for the Prius, non are seeking to build a car that burns less gas (ie, less oil). All the new hybrids are using their hi trorque electric motors for more performance on the road and non are getting more than 3 MPG more than the standard car they are replacing. I would rather have seen the 06 Prius really going for the milage by eliminating the converter heat requirement, bladder in the tank and the thermal strorage. I'll bet if Toyota wanted to stress milage we would see an EPA sticker with 70 MPG indicated. Maybe a slight increase in pollution but that would be decreased by less fuel burned. Instead we are offered different colors, chrome trim on the grill and a rear view camera that only works when the car is in reverse.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,285 Posts
"You seem to want to blame the American auto industry for the hated word in your vocabulary SUV. when they were just supplying the unit wanted by full-sized American families."

There is some blame to be placed on domestic automakers. Despite seeing the same market, clearly the Japanese are only lately building full size trucks and SUVs. Even then, there are some who will only buy American trucks.

The U.S. automakers lobbied heavily for COngress to back off from aggerssive smog and mileage goals that were contemplated or already on the books. They realized that, given their profitable dominance on the light truck market, their profitability wuold be threatened by such legislation.

After they got what they wanted from Congress, they lost any interest in mileage. They marketed power, power, power. They had a market almost to themselves. Then they got complacent, and didn't plan for a high-priced gas future.

Now that gas prices have spiked, their plan, profitable as it was before, is now threatening their market share even more.

Hybrids didn't create this problem for them. In fact, hybrid sales are still a very small part of sales today. But the steady decline in market share has been happening for 30 years. Barring a more radical change in manufacturing and marketing, this will probably continue.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,878 Posts
As I said, you just don't get it. Hybrids don't mean a thing with GM's decline in the market. The cheap reliable Japanese car of course does. . You wouldn't have considered a GM hybrid over a Japanese one if one was even available. Of course there is a market for every Prius made but the numbers aren't even noticed on GM's balance sheet. They are so complicated and expensive to manufacture I'm sure even Toyota has to keep track of how many they can afford to manufacture. Everyone that is brought into a dealership for a TSB or whatever under wqarranty has got to cost them and with such an unknown product with everyone they sell they are also writing a blank check for themselves to cover. Their latest press release about making a less expensive hybrid sounds like going back to the "classic" to me.
Again, a year and a half ago the market for the hybrid was for a few folks looking for cheap transportatrion and for others wanting to be the first in the neighborhood with something different.
You don't think it is odd that there isn't one concept hybrid car from any manufaturer in the world at any of this years auto shows in the U.S. or Europe? I believe no one believes the principal so far is viable or would be profitable.
Toyota has got to be commended for what they are attempting and I only hope it remains profitable for them. To those of us who purchased a Prius I can only say we got one heck of a deal because I still believe the car has been heavily subsidized. Aside from being one of the only viable hybrids available I do not consider it being even close to an American car in construction methods but that remains my personal opinion. The dealership I purchased my car from is far superior to any American one I have ever delt with and I thought it was a Japanese thing until reading two years of posts here and have discovered a good percentage of Toyota dealers are also lax in service and good dealer practices. I would suggest "Ricky's" dealership in northern California is one of "the good ones" but for any other in the entire U.S. who has charged their customer a premium above MSRP for a vehicle I would be surprised if any owner took their car back to one for service.
The Amereican car buyer is still demanding a new SUV as far as I can see and I've got to confess after a two year ownership of my Prius I would be very tempted to trade up to a FWD Highlander for the extra room and convenience, with the Prius synergy system installed in it "entoto" as underpowered as it would be, but as for the standard Hylander hybrid I believe it to be about 1/2 the car the standard Highlander is when comparing sales price and performance.
 
1 - 20 of 225 Posts
Top