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Aren't lithium based batteries much more toxic to the environment than NiMH? Also, what about the fossil fuel burning (or nuclear) power plants that have to generate the electricity required to power electric only vehicles? If we had stable cold fusion, I would agree that this model would be optimal but my hunch is that we're not yet ready to support electric only.

clett said:
A real world 1,000 mile range electric vehicle

Yes, really! All it takes is a little Lithium-Sulphur technology (up to 8 times the energy density of NiMH). Please feel free to have a look at my website!

http://www.benerridge.freeserve.co.uk/pin1.htm

I look forward to hearing your comments!
 

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Joel said:
Also, what about the fossil fuel burning (or nuclear) power plants that have to generate the electricity required to power electric only vehicles? If we had stable cold fusion, I would agree that this model would be optimal but my hunch is that we're not yet ready to support electric only.
Most electric cars would be charged at night when the demand for electricity is usually lower and the power plants have extra capacity available. The power plants have to keep the generators running even if there is no demand for electricity which is one of the reasons they offer off peak power at a cheaper rate.
 

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Yes but the end game is still the burning of a dirty fossil fuel to generate power. What makes sense to me is if everyone who owned a home placed solar panels on their roof to feed electricity back in to the power grid during the day. That would generate enough for daily driving of electric only vehicles.

citicar1976 said:
Joel said:
Also, what about the fossil fuel burning (or nuclear) power plants that have to generate the electricity required to power electric only vehicles? If we had stable cold fusion, I would agree that this model would be optimal but my hunch is that we're not yet ready to support electric only.
Most electric cars would be charged at night when the demand for electricity is usually lower and the power plants have extra capacity available. The power plants have to keep the generators running even if there is no demand for electricity which is one of the reasons they offer off peak power at a cheaper rate.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
The great benefit of switching to electric (or mostly electric in the case of plug-in hybrid) cars is that the electricity can, over a convenient length of time, start to be made from renewable sources (such as wind, wave and solar) without having to go back and change the vehicle fleet again.

In this way, fossil fuel derived electricity can slowly be phased out to make way for new CO2 neutral energy options. As mentioned earlier, overnight recharging would also lead to great load levelling potential.
 

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You make a very good point there.

clett said:
The great benefit of switching to electric (or mostly electric in the case of plug-in hybrid) cars is that the electricity can, over a convenient length of time, start to be made from renewable sources (such as wind, wave and solar) without having to go back and change the vehicle fleet again.

In this way, fossil fuel derived electricity can slowly be phased out to make way for new CO2 neutral energy options. As mentioned earlier, overnight recharging would also lead to great load levelling potential.
 

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Joel said:
Aren't lithium based batteries much more toxic to the environment than NiMH? Also, what about the fossil fuel burning (or nuclear) power plants that have to generate the electricity required to power electric only vehicles? If we had stable cold fusion, I would agree that this model would be optimal but my hunch is that we're not yet ready to support electric only.
Lithium based batteries are not toxic, as Lithium is a rather abundent, extremely light metal. Keep in mind that Lithium is actually used as a treatment for Manic-Depressive disorder. While I'm not saying you should be ingesting your Lithium batteries when feeling out of sorts, both NiMH and Li based batteries are generally benign from an environmental standpoint. NiMH is somewhat more impactful long term because of the inherent difficulties in producing the Ni electrode.

Cold fusion is a myth - it never existed, it never will exist. And its continued resurfacing in this type of discussion does EVs a real disservice.
 

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Hi I'm new to this board. I drive an '04 Prius with 600-odd miles on it at present.

I like the idea of a gridable hybrid with intermediate range, but I admit I am intrigued by your claim of an EV with a 1,000-mile range. Electricity at present comes largely from dirty coal-fired plants, but has the potential to come from clean renewables. But nobody is going to mass-produce either a gridable hybrid or an EV unless it can be sold at a price the common folk will buy.

So my question is, What is the cost of these new 500 wh/kg batteries in the near term, and what is a realistic estimate of their cost if they were manufactured in large scale? How much would it cost for a battery pack that would give a Prius a 25-mile EV range, and how much would the battery pack cost in a five-hundred-mile car? (1,000 miles may be overkill, and 500 miles would be enough to make the car commercially acceptable if the cost were affordable.)
 

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Discussion Starter #9
So my question is, What is the cost of these new 500 wh/kg batteries in the near term, and what is a realistic estimate of their cost if they were manufactured in large scale?
Good question!

The US advanced battery consortium (USABC), who are the authorities on this matter, have decided that EVs will finally be able to compete directly with fossil fuel powered cars on price once battery energy storage has fallen to around $150 per kilowatt-hour (kWh). I’ve run these sums too, and I think that they’re actually being a bit optimistic with this figure, and the point at which EVs will really be price competetive with fossil-fuelled autos is more likely to be around $80 per kilowatt-hour. At this price, for example, a 200 mile range pack would cost around $3,200 and could easily outlast the life of the car itself at 1,000 cycles.

But the question is not really if this price level can be reached, it’s more a question of when. They say that the past is no guide to future performance, but I’m still a bit of a sucker for keeping an eye on trends in the same way that computer scientists like to keep tabs on Moore’s law. As an example, the chart I’ve made below shows (roughly) how lithium-ion battery storage costs have fallen over the last 10 years or so since they were introduced in the early nineties.



You can see that the price of todays cheapest LiIon storage is around $300 per kWh. This is approximately the price you can expect to pay by making a big battery from AA cells, as pioneered by AC propulsion, or by buying larger packs directly from Thundersky, a company specialising in Lithium batteries for electric vehicles.

However, if you project the same trend of the last ten years into the coming years, LiIon should achieve the USABCs mid-term aim of $150/kWh by around 2007, $80/kWh by 2010 and around $55/kWh by 2012. (See chart below).



How can I be so sure that the price of LiIon will continue to plummet so dramatically? For two reasons. Firstly, energy density is increasing at an almost predictable annual rate. Todays LG-Chem 18650s (as used by AC Propulsion) are at around 170Wh/kg. But more than a year ago, cells in development at Polyplus were running at 420Wh/kg and presumably need only be ruggedised before commercialisation (OK, no easy feat, but once achieved would be an enormous step forward!).

The second even BIGGER influence on LiIon cost is the fact that the market for it just keeps expanding, bringing all the advantages of larger scale manufacturing and intense competition. Ironically, these plummeting costs in battery storage which are of such obvious benefit to EVs are not being driven by the automotive industry at all – the pressure is coming entirely from the ever increasing demand for lighter and longer lasting consumer electronics!



Another way to look at it is to consider battery technologies which are already mature in large volume. Take Zinc Chloride AA batteries, for example. These were expensive once, but as the market is now mature and billions are made every year I can buy these for about 30 cents each from my local supermarket. If lithium-sulphur batteries came out in AA form, and eventually fell in price to the same 30 cents per cell (and, in terms of costs of materials and manufacturing, there’s no real reason why they shouldn’t in the longer term), the cost of energy storage could plummet to only $17 per kWh! By that stage petrol wouldn’t even get a look in!

8)
 

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Discussion Starter #10
How much would it cost for a battery pack that would give a Prius a 25-mile EV range, and how much would the battery pack cost in a five-hundred-mile car?
What would this mean for a potential plug-in Prius?

I look at it this way. The first generation (classic) Prius was in production for six years before Toyota introduced the ’04 model. This means the next generation (Mark 3) Prius could be ready for release around 2010. Looking at the recent trends in storage costs, battery energy storage ought to be at or around $80/kWhr by then (equivalent to being able to buy a single AA LiS cell for $1.50 – an achievable aim for the near future I think). The 25 mile plug-in range you suggested could therefore be achieved with a 7 kWhr pack (allowing for only 80% discharges to conserve battery life) and would therefore add ~$560 to the cost of the car.

However, plug-in hybrids do not really work very well with small battery packs for the simple reason that small packs offer small power (maybe around 25 hp for the 25 mile range pack). Instead, 100 mile packs will be more viable, as these should be able to provide more realistic power for the vehicle, last for 100,000 miles and still weigh less than 50kg.

All in all, there’s a very good chance that the next model Prius will be a plug-in hybrid, with a variety of optional all electric ranges on the options list, ranging from 50 to 300 miles in intervals, at a cost of maybe $1,200 to $7,200 over base.

You read it here first! 8)
 

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Well, allowing that extrapolations are always dependent on assumptions that may or may not pan out and predicting the future is always uncertain, especially those price and capacity curves, still, I am encouraged.

One item of note, is that the Prius relies on drawing from both the gas engine and the electric motor for peak power (as during acceleration) so there are two routes it could go: One would be (let's say) a 25-mile low-power range for short city trips, which would require no more than a larger battery pack and a charger. The main advantage is that the engine would not have to start and warm up as often. The other route, a 100-mile range at full power, would also require a larger electric motor, since presumably with such a large range one would not want to sacrifice performance.

Wasn't the Original Prius (sold only in Japan starting in 1997) an earlier model than the 2001 Classic finally sold in the US? If so, it gives us hope for a new model in late 2006 (model year 2007) which would be Mark 4.
 

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I haven't seen this battery talked about before. It's a lithium-iron.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Environmental friendly Colloid Solid State Cr-F-Li Battery is an cost effective alternative for Lithium Ion Battery of high power, high capacity, security and practicability.

Cr-F-Li Battery is almost 1/10th the cost of Lithium Ion Battery.

Thunder Sky, based in Shenzhen, China, a leading supplier of patented Colloid Solid State Cr-F-Li Battery based on the Liquid Lithium Ion Battery and Solid Polymer Lithium Ion Battery. Solid Sate Cr-F-Li Battery is mainly for electric motor cycle, electric vehicle, bus and other electrical transportation instruments. The standard products are 50Ah, 90Ah, 100Ah, 200Ah, 300Ah, 500Ah, and 600 Ah.



http://www.everspring.net/product-battery.htm

It doesn't talk about cost per kwh though.
 

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Hi kennyb,

Cr usually means Chromium, F usually means Fluorine, and Li usually means Lithium. I don't see where Iron (typically Fe) comes into the picture.

If you really meant Lithium-ion, it was discussed a few messages prior to yours.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
It doesn't talk about cost per kwh though.
It's on the next page....
http://www.everspring.net/product-battery-pricing.htm

You're looking at about $350 per kWh for the LP6168B battery. Would put the cost of the battery pack in the proposed 1,000 mile range project car at about $38,000 (109kWh). BUT 109kWh of these batteries would weigh about 780kg, which is a bit too much for this project, so it would really need the lighter LiS cells to have a realistic chance of hitting the 1,000 mile target. :)
 

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Hi,

I have read of a 400miles lithium electric car but I cant find it again. I think it was a test in Japan where the car with lithium batteries drove 400miles I think in heavy traffic (low speeds). I know that owners of 100 mile electric cars with lithium ion batteries can squeeze 200 miles if they drive slow 45 mph. These are owners of converted cars with thunder sky batteries. There is an orginisation in UK that groups imports thunder sky lithium batteries and convert their own cars. I guess this is people tired of waiting for the industry to get their thumbs out.

Anyway, for a new electric car the best I can find is this Canadia car, Maya 100, that claims 200miles. Is that enough? For me that would be superb. I would add solar panels to the roof also for extended range. They say the car is launching, I hope so i will get it right away if they do launch.


Here is the Maya 100
http://www.electrovaya.com/innovation/zev_tech.html
 
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