As long as you can produce it without using the magic ingrediant "oil."
I'de be willing to accept some pollution to get out from under "opec".
I'de be willing to accept some pollution to get out from under "opec".
$50,000 Fuel Cell - Reply
"Hydrogen fuel cell vehicles, which emit only water, would ease environmental concerns and help cars meet stricter emissions regulations."
It takes a lot on energy ( natural gas, oil, coal, etc. ) to product hydrogen.
Once produced, it emits only water. I just don't get. Polute in one place to meet emission standards somewhere else. Looks like we will have to produce hydrogen in outer space. That would work.
It takes a lot on energy ( natural gas, oil, coal, etc. ) to product hydrogen.
Once produced, it emits only water. I just don't get. Polute in one place to meet emission standards somewhere else. Looks like we will have to produce hydrogen in outer space. That would work.
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Might as well go with a BEV, then.
Fuel cell vehicle - 1 mile per kWh.
Plug-in hybrid - 4 miles per kWh.
So why hydrogen? Because that way the big fuel companies can still fleece you at the forecourt.
Electric vehicles = end of filling stations.
End of filling stations = a rough time for the oil companies.
This is a business decision, not a technical or an environmental one.
Plug-in hybrid - 4 miles per kWh.
So why hydrogen? Because that way the big fuel companies can still fleece you at the forecourt.
Electric vehicles = end of filling stations.
End of filling stations = a rough time for the oil companies.
This is a business decision, not a technical or an environmental one.
That depends on where you are measuring the KWh. Are you taking it from the potential energy of the fuel versus the miles travelled, or are you taking it from the electric power delivered to the motor? If the latter, then the numbers should be the same. A motor is quite efficient, and doesn't care where the electricity came from.clett said:Fuel cell vehicle - 1 mile per kWh.
Plug-in hybrid - 4 miles per kWh.
It takes about 60 kilowatt-hours of electricity to electrolyse from water, compress and store 1 kilogram of hydrogen. The best fuel cell vehicles can manage about 64 miles per kilogram of hydrogen.
Hence the best FCVs can only manage ~1 mile per kWh. The reason it's so poor is that huge amounts of energy are lost at each stage of the chain for the FCV - electrolysis (20% lost); compression (varies, but very energy intensive), transport (not included in the 60kWh calculation - will add a lot more) and finally the fuel cell itself is only 50% efficient when running at peak efficiency, so you throw away half of what you put in the car right at the last minute!
However, people with decent EVs (like an EV1, RAV4 EV or Solectria Force) report about 3-5 miles per kWh.
Hence the best FCVs can only manage ~1 mile per kWh. The reason it's so poor is that huge amounts of energy are lost at each stage of the chain for the FCV - electrolysis (20% lost); compression (varies, but very energy intensive), transport (not included in the 60kWh calculation - will add a lot more) and finally the fuel cell itself is only 50% efficient when running at peak efficiency, so you throw away half of what you put in the car right at the last minute!
However, people with decent EVs (like an EV1, RAV4 EV or Solectria Force) report about 3-5 miles per kWh.
I also believe they are hyping fuel cell vehicles to try and slow down hybrid popularity. Trying to tell people something better is right around the corner and they should hold off. I really do believe this. I think the current president, opec and all the oil companies are in bed with this stuff.clett said:Fuel cell vehicle - 1 mile per kWh.
Plug-in hybrid - 4 miles per kWh.
So why hydrogen? Because that way the big fuel companies can still fleece you at the forecourt.
Electric vehicles = end of filling stations.
End of filling stations = a rough time for the oil companies.
This is a business decision, not a technical or an environmental one.
The "stop gap" nonsense in the past clearly supported that belief.h_curtis said:I also believe they are hyping fuel cell vehicles to try and slow down hybrid popularity.
Fortunately, they figured out that hybrid-supporters got the word out about what they were up to. So they stopped that particular negative campaigning.
Unfortunately, the fuel-cell hype continues.
Anyone interested in this topic, should read this book.
"Hype About Hydrogen" Joseph J. Romm, 2004. I got it at my local library.
It is the most sensible view of the subject I have read, by someone who appears to have researched it well and is very knowledgable in the field.
(and we obviously have some very knowledgable people on this chat, thanks for the info)
"Hype About Hydrogen" Joseph J. Romm, 2004. I got it at my local library.
It is the most sensible view of the subject I have read, by someone who appears to have researched it well and is very knowledgable in the field.
(and we obviously have some very knowledgable people on this chat, thanks for the info)
And we are also beginning to learn that hybrid power may just not be that viable because of the cost restrictions. It's got to be made cheap enough for the mass market to afford if we'll ever see it in the "millions."
It's getting pretty obvious we are not going to see a Ford F-100 or Toyota Tacoma pickup with hybrid power in an affordable package. for a few years.
It's getting pretty obvious we are not going to see a Ford F-100 or Toyota Tacoma pickup with hybrid power in an affordable package. for a few years.
"Hydrogen fuel cell vehicles, which emit only water, would ease environmental concerns and help cars meet stricter emissions regulations."
I still don’t get it. I will have to get:
"Hype About Hydrogen" Joseph J. Romm, 2004.
Hydrogen must be compressed in order to carry a vehicle any useful distance.
Storage and transporting hydrogen; now you are talking about a liquid.
Both processes require additional energy.
Interesting when a space shuttle goes up and the reporter mentions water vapor from the rocket but forgets to mention all the pollution to keep the hydrogen in liquid form on the ground.
I still don’t get it. I will have to get:
"Hype About Hydrogen" Joseph J. Romm, 2004.
Hydrogen must be compressed in order to carry a vehicle any useful distance.
Storage and transporting hydrogen; now you are talking about a liquid.
Both processes require additional energy.
Interesting when a space shuttle goes up and the reporter mentions water vapor from the rocket but forgets to mention all the pollution to keep the hydrogen in liquid form on the ground.
“Hybrid Cost Restrictions”
This is one other thing I just don’t get.
The real cost increase in making a hybrid is in the engineering.
Computers, software, and research which can all drop in price once mass produced.
A hybrid should be no more than a gas vehicle to produce when you consider most parts of a hybrid car and non-hybrid are the same.
This is one other thing I just don’t get.
The real cost increase in making a hybrid is in the engineering.
Computers, software, and research which can all drop in price once mass produced.
A hybrid should be no more than a gas vehicle to produce when you consider most parts of a hybrid car and non-hybrid are the same.
Don't forget the batteries which held up the construction of hybrids for years. And it's not just the computers which place the cost of the "synergy" system at $5,000.
Yeh, get the book. He covers all the subjects discussed here in an even handed manner. Cost, technology, hype, where will the filling stations come from...etc, etc.
In 1939 at the NYC World's Fair they did a "25 years in the future" projection...that would have been 1964.
I'm still waiting for my individual commuting helicopter, rocket travel to Mars, completely encapsulated cities so the air/temp/noise/weather would not be a disrupting factor in daily life, and a few other "projections..."
In 1939 at the NYC World's Fair they did a "25 years in the future" projection...that would have been 1964.
I'm still waiting for my individual commuting helicopter, rocket travel to Mars, completely encapsulated cities so the air/temp/noise/weather would not be a disrupting factor in daily life, and a few other "projections..."
An04Prius, you're not missing much.
When was the last time EVERYBODY in your house agreed on the thermostat setting? Can you imagine a WHOLE CITY complaining about how hot/cold/humid/dry the indoor temperature was, all at the same time?
Only those pod-people in "The Matrix" movies didn't complain. Well, not until they took the red pill, anyhow.
When was the last time EVERYBODY in your house agreed on the thermostat setting? Can you imagine a WHOLE CITY complaining about how hot/cold/humid/dry the indoor temperature was, all at the same time?
Only those pod-people in "The Matrix" movies didn't complain. Well, not until they took the red pill, anyhow.
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