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C.Rickey Hirose said:
john1701a said:
The SEDAN version is indeed small in the back... so small you can very easily see that there is much less room than Prius. I got a very long look at one in the parking lot the other day, parked just a few spots away from mine.

I suspect Honda is repostitioning, preparing a 4-cylinder hybrid Accord to compete with Prius instead or just simply not offering a model that is directly comparible with what Toyota offers.
Hi john1701a: I completely agree with your view. The Honda Civic 06 Hybrid sedans are much , much smaller inside than the "Mid-Sized" Prius.
Prius watch-it-out ! The new 07 CH is on the horizon but again it is _Not_
a Prius !
Are you guys serious? I sat in the back of the new Civic and even test drove it. Duh, it's not a midsize but it's damn big for a compact car. Rear seat legroom rivals the Camry.
 

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Tideland Prius said:
Are you guys serious? I sat in the back of the new Civic and even test drove it. Duh, it's not a midsize but it's damn big for a compact car. Rear seat legroom rivals the Camry.
Just for the record, here's the specs from the manufacturer's sites:

Rear legroom: '06 Civic Hybrid, 34.6", '06 (and presumably '04 and '05) Prius, 38.6". Btw, '06 Camry's legroom is 37.8".
 

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Oh to be very young again and need the use of a back seat, or to be middle aged again, and need the seat for the kids. Makes little differance if you are just squeezing in a couple of friends for a ride to a good restuarant.
Both the Prius and the Civic are a little tight for my tastes and except that they are hybrids would be only a car I would rent for economy and not own with a growing family.
Spoiled, ugly American I guess. But I have grown accustomed to my comfort.
It is nice to be able to afford both worlds.
 

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hyperion said:
I hope you all don't think I was attempting to pick out one car and claim it was better than the other. I just happened to have the opportunity to get to spend a week with the new toy on the block and thought I would offer my personal observations. The rear seats in the Civic do not fold forward. It is just a standard four door sedan. The only fault my son has found with the car is opening the trunk after a night of snow. The rear window ends right at the trunk hinge. No four to six inches of body that is usually found on sedans before getting to the trunk hindges. If you don't clean the rear window and top completely off, when you open the trunk lid you fill the trunk with snow.
Nobody builds a car with 60,000 mile componants and for sure Honda wouldn't.
Back in early 04 I checked out the Honda and passed account of the four cylinder engine in the Civic. When you put the standard over head eight valve engine of the Civic against the aluminum double over head cam 16 valve engine of the Prius there was no contest.
However if I were shopping for a hybrid now I would opt for just the high milage design that was simply designed for long life with few componants and as few computers possible.
In fact my Prius will be my one and only hybrid. I'm just waiting for the next generation high milage internal combustion engine to come along and hopefully before my 35,000 miles occur even though I did purchase an extended warranty.
The Saturn Vue is a neat little SUV and with the minor hybrid "kick" just might be what the doctor ordered.
Hello Hyperion: I'm not talking about multi-Valve or ICE durability of the Hondas. All Toyotas, Hondas, Nissans,Subarus and the rest builds an excellent Engine=ICE here. I'm talking of Power transfer devises such as clutches and transmission. In this case I'm talking of the Hybrid's CVT . I grew up with the Honda motorcycle stories that le Mans this and won the entire category, vs the rest of the world. So I do respect the mighty Honda reaserch and develop company. However the Hondas simplicity as you put it may be right but the Metal-Belt driven Belts and Cones CVT is not "Durable" as the Toyota's Power split devised E-CVT, all my Techs and the Honda's Hybrid Techs unanimously agrees as well on this. That's my point.
 

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Tideland Prius said:
[quote="C.Rickey Hirose":33ph41zv]
john1701a said:
The SEDAN version is indeed small in the back... so small you can very easily see that there is much less room than Prius. I got a very long look at one in the parking lot the other day, parked just a few spots away from mine.

I suspect Honda is repostitioning, preparing a 4-cylinder hybrid Accord to compete with Prius instead or just simply not offering a model that is directly comparible with what Toyota offers.
Hi john1701a: I completely agree with your view. The Honda Civic 06 Hybrid sedans are much , much smaller inside than the "Mid-Sized" Prius.
Prius watch-it-out ! The new 07 CH is on the horizon but again it is _Not_
a Prius !
Are you guys serious? I sat in the back of the new Civic and even test drove it. Duh, it's not a midsize but it's damn big for a compact car. Rear seat legroom rivals the Camry.[/quote:33ph41zv]

Hi TidelandPrius I think ?.. What did ? you said ,as big as the Camry in the back seat of a Civic. How short are you. Myself I'm only 5.10" but I can not comfortably seat in the back of a 06 Civic sedans in comaparison to the rear of the 06 Camry. Oh Men, the Civics are "Compacts" and the Camry is "Mid-Size to large size sedans, especially the Insides ! There is no comparison among them !
 

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hyperion said:
Next the Honda uses an entirely different approach to the hybrid principal (and one I think the "rest" of the hybrid industry including the "big three," will adopt for it's simplicity)
Personally, I believe the automotive future is the plug-in hybrid, which will be capable of charging up off the grid and will handle short trips using just the electric motor. That will require a sizeable electric motor more akin to the Prius design than Honda's.
 

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C.Rickey Hirose said:
[quote="Tideland Prius":1xczrsz4][quote="C.Rickey Hirose":1xczrsz4]
john1701a said:
The SEDAN version is indeed small in the back... so small you can very easily see that there is much less room than Prius. I got a very long look at one in the parking lot the other day, parked just a few spots away from mine.

I suspect Honda is repostitioning, preparing a 4-cylinder hybrid Accord to compete with Prius instead or just simply not offering a model that is directly comparible with what Toyota offers.
Hi john1701a: I completely agree with your view. The Honda Civic 06 Hybrid sedans are much , much smaller inside than the "Mid-Sized" Prius.
Prius watch-it-out ! The new 07 CH is on the horizon but again it is _Not_
a Prius !
Are you guys serious? I sat in the back of the new Civic and even test drove it. Duh, it's not a midsize but it's damn big for a compact car. Rear seat legroom rivals the Camry.[/quote:1xczrsz4]

Hi TidelandPrius I think ?.. What did ? you said ,as big as the Camry in the back seat of a Civic. How short are you. Myself I'm only 5.10" but I can not comfortably seat in the back of a 06 Civic sedans in comaparison to the rear of the 06 Camry. Oh Men, the Civics are "Compacts" and the Camry is "Mid-Size to large size sedans, especially the Insides ! There is no comparison among them ![/quote:1xczrsz4]

I'm 6' damn it and I fit in all 3 cars mentioned above.

Wayneswhirld, hmm, that's odd. It's 4 inches smaller! I stand corrected then. It did feel as roomy as a Camry (not width of course). Maybe I need a second look.
 

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Chuck, that would be "neat" but have you even guessed at what your electric bill would be unless the country "powers up with "Atomic"

The envirementalists have just about shut-down any thoughts of wind power in the northeast and I see nary a word mentioned of solar here. Unfortunately all the major power supplying rivers are in the west.

Maybe when the oil is gone!

And Ricky, My service rep told me that when my power transfer case develops a problem it will be just pulled and returned to Japan, with a new or rebuilt unit installed.

No matter what your service tech tells you to pass on to a possible customer I can't believe Honda wiuld install a power transfer unit into a 04 hybrid Civic and continue with it in the 06 model if they thought it's life expectency would be in the 50,000 mile area.
Since the Honda mainly uses the ICE for power and changes engine size for economy there may be very little use of the PTU transferring power between the gas and electric power plants, making much less wear on their especially designed belts.

Interesting to see what the rest of the automotive industry comes up with and now with gas on the rise again until the next elections we might see their change that much sooner.
 

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hyperion said:
Chuck, that would be "neat" but have you even guessed at what your electric bill would be unless the country "powers up with "Atomic"
There's plenty of electricity. At least at first, plug-ins would mostly charge off the grid overnight on mainly coal-generated electricity. There are plenty of baseload coal plants that can't be turned down and utilities don't have much of a market for that off-peak nighttime electricity, so it's cheap. Running a car off that electricity would be cheaper than running it off gasoline at today's prices.

Of course, coal plants don't solve the very real climate change problem (unless carbon capture and sequestration technologies are added, which make renewables more economically attractive). But as plug-ins become widespread, the distributed electric storage capacity represented by all those batteries will enable wind, concentrating solar power plants, and photovoltaics by providing a solution for their intermittency/dispatchability issues. (Make the plug-ins flexible fuel vehicles that can burn 85% ethanol or biodiesel and you dramatically reduce imported oil.) Nuclear power is admittedly carbon-free but faces the very serious issues of waste disposal and proliferation and, at about 8 cents per kWh for new plants, isn't cheap. A recent study by the Western Governors' Association showed the tremendous potential for renewable sources. All of these topics will be covered at the national solar energy conference in Denver next July: http://www.solar2006.org. There are solutions and the economics are reasonable. The turning point will come when people understand the economic consequences of NOT reducing carbon emissions.
 

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hyperion said:
Chuck, that would be "neat" but have you even guessed at what your electric bill would be unless the country "powers up with "Atomic"

The envirementalists have just about shut-down any thoughts of wind power in the northeast and I see nary a word mentioned of solar here. Unfortunately all the major power supplying rivers are in the west.

Maybe when the oil is gone!

And Ricky, My service rep told me that when my power transfer case develops a problem it will be just pulled and returned to Japan, with a new or rebuilt unit installed.

No matter what your service tech tells you to pass on to a possible customer I can't believe Honda wiuld install a power transfer unit into a 04 hybrid Civic and continue with it in the 06 model if they thought it's life expectency would be in the 50,000 mile area.
Since the Honda mainly uses the ICE for power and changes engine size for economy there may be very little use of the PTU transferring power between the gas and electric power plants, making much less wear on their especially designed belts.

Interesting to see what the rest of the automotive industry comes up with and now with gas on the rise again until the next elections we might see their change that much sooner.
Grid Charged Electric Vehicles ? Hmm, I sold or leased those EV such as the Toyotas Rav4 EV back then. My Customers in a good slow-going days were getting 100~110 miles per charge. In order for the EV to be widely accepted it has to enhance its driving range and have charging stations throughout the U.S.A. not only in certain places in CA... Although the Tax Credit, in this case were the Cash back crdit of $30.000 US dollars spread-out in 3 years were the "Bonanza" and big incentives for Customers to Buy them or lease them ! We as Toyota had to sell only few hundread EV Rav4's back then for Toyota Motor Corp to receive their"Tax Bonanza" as well. !

The Standard or the "Format" either the "Beta or Vhs" will see who wins in the next 5 years. I know Toyota has increased its HSD/Power split devise manufacturers "Aishin-Seiki" holdings to more than 65 % already and the HV battery manufacturer Panasonic and Matsushita Electric, both and the Parent company can not survive _With_Out_ Toyotas business ! So it is interesting to see the near future, The GM,BMW,Daimler-Chrysler alliance trying to come-up with new "Format" Standards setting Hybrid System of their own .. Let wait and see.....I will still put my money on the Toyota's sytem..
 

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Regarding belt based E-CVT, what does the reqired maintenance guide of the HCH say?

E-CVT isn't just for electric - ICE power transfer transitions, but rather that's how gear ratio is changed. The ICE goes at a relatively constant RPM for the power demand, and the cones shift the belts so that the engine to wheel gearing changes continuously. The results are not much unlike our Prius, but does have wear and tear. Any belt would. Remember timing belts? Those needed replacement at some point, and they aren't sliding up and down the gear!
 

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DanMan32 said:
Regarding belt based E-CVT, what does the reqired maintenance guide of the HCH say?

E-CVT isn't just for electric - ICE power transfer transitions, but rather that's how gear ratio is changed. The ICE goes at a relatively constant RPM for the power demand, and the cones shift the belts so that the engine to wheel gearing changes continuously. The results are not much unlike our Prius, but does have wear and tear. Any belt would. Remember timing belts? Those needed replacement at some point, and they aren't sliding up and down the gear!
I believe Hyperion mentioned that the Honda people take the whole CVT send it back to Japan and have them rebuild to retrofit again to that Hybrid Civic. My Toyota techs Friends at the Honda says that they have done many already "Under" warranty with mileage _Less-Than_ 60k... The Belts are friction prone and has to expand thus Polymer-Metal fatigue is more accelerated than the direct gear mesh of the Toyota system...
 

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hyperion said:
Rick, not the Honda people, the Toyota. All I know about the Civic is the one week of driving one. Compared with the prius, the cars are very similar.
No Hyperion, The Toyota Power split devise or the E-CVT are crafted and machined to an Aero-space spec tolerance that rebuilding is almost impossible, If one of Toyota E-CVT fails it is sent back for analysis and studied. A rare case indeed. I have seen report that one Tranny exploded and Toyota installed a new one. No re-build ones will be retrofitted but if and when this ever happens then a New ones goes in to that Prius.
 

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As I had posted before, that was my dad's experience 2 decades ago. Planetary gear systems are custom machined as a set. Less problem prone to replace than rebuild.
 

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That's exactly what my service manager told me. The whole unit (if a problem developed) would be removed and returned to Japan. Of course, it would be replaced with a new unit but eventually after many returns I'm sure the returned units would be rebuilt in Japan.
You'll never find one of these units in any transmission shop in the U.S.
However, I have torn down a transmission in an old Jag XK 120, replaced half the gears and driven the car another 70,000 miles before selling it.
 
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