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Thought you all might like to see this :
Scuttlebutt around the office was that the Prius was about to get its walking papers. But just as any office rumor, this one was eventually proven false. After "upper management" got its hands on the facts — the Prius was 2 seconds quicker from zero to 60, got better overall fuel economy, and offered a plethora of cool features not available on the Civic — the gossip mill was shut down and the Civic was passed over for promotion while the Prius kept its corner office and parking space.


For the full story go to http://autos.aol.com/article?id=20060103171309990001
 

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Yeah, before I ordered my 06 Prius, I test drove the 06 Civic Hybrid. I was going to go ahead and purchase a Civic Hybrid until the dealer told me that they can't find the color I wanted and it would take 3 months to get the color that I want.

I then went to the Toyota dealer and the difference was night and day between the prius and civic. I went to the dealer not wanting to buy a prius but just one spin around the block, I ended up ordering one on the spot.

I have to admit though, the new civic looks a lot better then the Prius, but the Prius wins in terms of engine and cabin.
 

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I just do not understand Honda's priority here. They came out with a sleek looking new Civic lines following the design theme and family resemblance of the Acura brands and very good looking indeed. However, why did the Honda designers and Engineers gave its new Civic longer wheel base but took 2 inches of leg-room ? Visual Effect sells cars ? More supple and a better ride perhaps with the longer wheel-base but less room....Somebody please tell me.
 

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I think you might've gotten mixed up with the Civic sedan and Civic coupe. The coupe lost rear legroom but the sedan gained.
 

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The SEDAN version is indeed small in the back... so small you can very easily see that there is much less room than Prius. I got a very long look at one in the parking lot the other day, parked just a few spots away from mine.

I suspect Honda is repostitioning, preparing a 4-cylinder hybrid Accord to compete with Prius instead or just simply not offering a model that is directly comparible with what Toyota offers.
 

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john1701a said:
The SEDAN version is indeed small in the back... so small you can very easily see that there is much less room than Prius. I got a very long look at one in the parking lot the other day, parked just a few spots away from mine.

I suspect Honda is repostitioning, preparing a 4-cylinder hybrid Accord to compete with Prius instead or just simply not offering a model that is directly comparible with what Toyota offers.
Hi john1701a: I completely agree with your view. The Honda Civic 06 Hybrid sedans are much , much smaller inside than the "Mid-Sized" Prius.
Prius watch-it-out ! The new 07 CH is on the horizon but again it is _Not_
a Prius !
 

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First off, I have been driving my Prius for 18 months with nothing but the two recalls, and like it very much. Well I've been driving my sons new 06 Civic hybrid for the past week and I can point out several facts concerning the differences in the cars. First my son needed a sedan with a locking secure trunk in his job. Second he confessed he never did like the appearance of my Prius and you do have to admit the Prius does look different. Next the Honda uses an entirely different approach to the hybrid principal (and one I think the "rest" of the hybrid industry including the "big three," will adopt for it's simplicity)
The Civic ICE operates 90% of the time and the car gets it's fifty city, fifty highway milage from decreasing the engine displacement with the use of the engine valves. Engine seems to shutdown only when car is at a complete stop. No additional coolant reservoir, and no engine run to heat the converter. Normal brake system (with anti-loc) and the only high tech indication in the car is the flip over nav screen.
The car drives and performs like the Prius but it does have comfortable adjustable seats, along with a telescoptic steering wheel.

It has a full set of guages including a tach which follows along with automobile acceleration and speed. It uses the electric motor (one) to supplement the ICE power.
All in all, it is an extremely simple manner of increasing MPG and can be worked on in most independent garages. The car I drove only had several thousand miles on it (picked up the first of November) but has been averaging between 45 and 50 MPG.
It is not even in the same league technically with the Prius but if I were asked, because of the Prius complexity I would seriously recommend the Civic.
 

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hyperion said:
First off, I have been driving my Prius for 18 months with nothing but the two recalls, and like it very much. Well I've been driving my sons new 06 Civic hybrid for the past week and I can point out several facts concerning the differences in the cars. First my son needed a sedan with a locking secure trunk in his job. Second he confessed he never did like the appearance of my Prius and you do have to admit the Prius does look different. Next the Honda uses an entirely different approach to the hybrid principal (and one I think the "rest" of the hybrid industry including the "big three," will adopt for it's simplicity)
The Civic ICE operates 90% of the time and the car gets it's fifty city, fifty highway milage from decreasing the engine displacement with the use of the engine valves. Engine seems to shutdown only when car is at a complete stop. No additional coolant reservoir, and no engine run to heat the converter. Normal brake system (with anti-loc) and the only high tech indication in the car is the flip over nav screen.
The car drives and performs like the Prius but it does have comfortable adjustable seats, along with a telescoptic steering wheel.

It has a full set of guages including a tach which follows along with automobile acceleration and speed. It uses the electric motor (one) to supplement the ICE power.
All in all, it is an extremely simple manner of increasing MPG and can be worked on in most independent garages. The car I drove only had several thousand miles on it (picked up the first of November) but has been averaging between 45 and 50 MPG.
It is not even in the same league technically with the Prius but if I were asked, because of the Prius complexity I would seriously recommend the Civic.
Simplicity ? but is it durable ? My technicians tells me that the Hondas CVT wears out much faster than the Toyotas Power Split Devised E-CVT due to its utilisation of the "Belts & Cones" CVT. They are techs working at diffrent makes but they do talk to each others very often and the Honda techs says that the Honda system ( CVT ) need to be replaced at 60 K ? If this is true then what is the merit of simplicity vs complex. I hear no HSD of the Gen II needs replacement at that early mileage, even the THS of the 97~03 will go at least 100K before anything going wrong with its CVT/Power Split Devise. Also the Hondas carries only 36/36 warranty on its Power Train. Perhaps the CVT and its components longer
warranted.The Hondas and its end users will need it !
 

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hyperion said:
because of the Prius complexity I would seriously recommend the Civic.
That is a rather misleading statement.

True, Civic-Hybrid is more simple from the old mechanic learning how to service it perspective, since they are just leveraging off of existing traditional components.

But for a brand new mechanic learning how to service vehicles from scratch, HSD wins by a landslide. The new technology in Prius is by far the better way to go in the long run.
 

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MtnTraveler said:
My limited understanding is the Honda system goes for best mileage, and the Toyota system goes for least emissions. Is this still true?
No, I believe Toyota system goes for: Cleanest emission, more power and torque,plus a better over-all gas mileage too ! Not even mentioning the High Tech standard features already included !
 

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hyperion said:
the only high tech indication in the car is the flip over nav screen.
What do you need a flip over nav screen for? Is that so the rescue workers can know where they are in the event that you land the car on the roof?

I like simplicity too. Still ordered a Prius based on the notion that I don't want to own a first model year car, I've learned about that from experience with Honda and Ford.
 

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John, as yet I haven't found a "sharp" new mech who understood the HSD system, at least not at my dealers. And the Honda Civic dash appears normal to that of the standard Civic and Accord until you tap the center of the dash which then fips over giving you a nav screen about the size of the prius MFD.
In the post by Spike today of "the future of hybrids" there is a bit of info on Saturns new "Vue hybrid" and that's the way I expect to see the rest of the automakers in the world go hybrid. Probably 1/10th the tech of the Prius. I also expect the whole industry to adopt the decreasing of engine size displacement by the "open valve" method of Honda rather than the shutting down of cylinders in the search for better fuel economy.
Wouldn't surprise me one bit to see Toyota going to this method in the Four Runner V8 and their Pick-up trucks.
 

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john1701a said:
hyperion said:
because of the Prius complexity I would seriously recommend the Civic.
That is a rather misleading statement.

True, Civic-Hybrid is more simple from the old mechanic learning how to service it perspective, since they are just leveraging off of existing traditional components.

But for a brand new mechanic learning how to service vehicles from scratch, HSD wins by a landslide. The new technology in Prius is by far the better way to go in the long run.
Why don't we just go back to ridin' horses, Dag Nabbit!!!

Now them things was simple! And the MPG!!! (of course the emmissions are another story...)
 

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hyperion said:
John, as yet I haven't found a "sharp" new mech who understood the HSD system, at least not at my dealers. And the Honda Civic dash appears normal to that of the standard Civic and Accord until you tap the center of the dash which then fips over giving you a nav screen about the size of the prius MFD.
In the post by Spike today of "the future of hybrids" there is a bit of info on Saturns new "Vue hybrid" and that's the way I expect to see the rest of the automakers in the world go hybrid. Probably 1/10th the tech of the Prius. I also expect the whole industry to adopt the decreasing of engine size displacement by the "open valve" method of Honda rather than the shutting down of cylinders in the search for better fuel economy.
Wouldn't surprise me one bit to see Toyota going to this method in the Four Runner V8 and their Pick-up trucks.
Hyperion, I believe Toyota's next approach is: V8 and or heavy duty+Trucks and massive weighting large SUVs will have Higher Voltage at Inverter-to-battery more in the tune of excess 1.000 Volts ! Will make its MG1-MG2-MGR smaller and lighter ! Also Toyota already have VVTL-i and more on that ....
 

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Don't know much about the complexity vs. simplicity line, but I would seriously doubt that Honda puts a car out there that needs major components of the tranny replaced at 60k. They make a fine product, and I have owned several.

And, honestly, the all new Hybrid Civic should be better than our current Prius. The major part of the design is 2 years newer than the still fairly similar to the 2004 launched current Prius. Just as the 2008 Prius, should jump ahead of the now new hybrid Civic. Time marches on, especially in an emerging technology field.

For us, when it was time to compare the '04 Civic hybrid to the '04 Prius; the main selling points to us were the Prius was a hatchback (don't know about the '06 Civic, but on the '04 you couldn't even fold down the rear seats) and that the Prius was so feature laden for a $26,000 car -- regardless of the hybrid drive. There was no other car in that price league that offered ABS, stability, traction, Nav, bluetooth, HID, side curtain airbags, etc.

Spike
 

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Spike said:
Don't know much about the complexity vs. simplicity line, but I would seriously doubt that Honda puts a car out there that needs major components of the tranny replaced at 60k. They make a fine product, and I have owned several.

And, honestly, the all new Hybrid Civic should be better than our current Prius. The major part of the design is 2 years newer than the still fairly similar to the 2004 launched current Prius. Just as the 2008 Prius, should jump ahead of the now new hybrid Civic. Time marches on, especially in an emerging technology field.

For us, when it was time to compare the '04 Civic hybrid to the '04 Prius; the main selling points to us were the Prius was a hatchback (don't know about the '06 Civic, but on the '04 you couldn't even fold down the rear seats) and that the Prius was so feature laden for a $26,000 car -- regardless of the hybrid drive. There was no other car in that price league that offered ABS, stability, traction, Nav, bluetooth, HID, side curtain airbags, etc.

Spike
Spike, I agree with you that Honda is an excellent company and prides it self as the Reserch and Development company, no doubts abut that. however, the metal & Synthetic Rubber compounded CVT belts that runs up and or side to side on its Cones has its limitations. The friction of these Matallic belts will induce the metal fatigue more rapidly than the gear driven Toyota's sytem therefore I will not be surprised if at 40k the Auto trans = CVT Civic hybrids will need new belts and assembly alltogether. I believe my Techs said that the Honda people are very worried abut this.
In Japan, the average speed is so low but in the Statesides average speed are very "High" thus premature failure ? The Dutch comapny DAF has the original patents on the Belt driven CVT's I reckon. After the patents became free for all, the Subaru people beeing tinkering with E-CVT since the early 90's Toyota could have used its expired patent from DAF but couldn't achieve satisfying longevity out of the "belts" so came the Idea of Solar System: Sun the mother Energy point and the planet revolving around the "SUN" + Power split devise AKA Toyota E-CVT
 

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I hope you all don't think I was attempting to pick out one car and claim it was better than the other. I just happened to have the opportunity to get to spend a week with the new toy on the block and thought I would offer my personal observations. The rear seats in the Civic do not fold forward. It is just a standard four door sedan. The only fault my son has found with the car is opening the trunk after a night of snow. The rear window ends right at the trunk hinge. No four to six inches of body that is usually found on sedans before getting to the trunk hindges. If you don't clean the rear window and top completely off, when you open the trunk lid you fill the trunk with snow.
Nobody builds a car with 60,000 mile componants and for sure Honda wouldn't.
Back in early 04 I checked out the Honda and passed account of the four cylinder engine in the Civic. When you put the standard over head eight valve engine of the Civic against the aluminum double over head cam 16 valve engine of the Prius there was no contest.
However if I were shopping for a hybrid now I would opt for just the high milage design that was simply designed for long life with few componants and as few computers possible.
In fact my Prius will be my one and only hybrid. I'm just waiting for the next generation high milage internal combustion engine to come along and hopefully before my 35,000 miles occur even though I did purchase an extended warranty.
The Saturn Vue is a neat little SUV and with the minor hybrid "kick" just might be what the doctor ordered.
 
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