[D U I]

Check out this predator's listing:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayI ... gory=43925

Note To Seller: What goes around, comes around.

 

[efusco]

I see no problem at all. Is the price ridiculous--yep, does that make the seller a bad person? Nope. If there's a fool with enough money willing to pay $7000+ over MSRP for a Prius then let that fool be parted with his money and I'll pat the seller on the back and ask HIM to pay for the beer.
--evan

 

[D U I]

Agree with your point Doctor, but once the reserve is revealed, you may see it my way, I'm guessing the reserve is 10G over sticker (36K).

 

[efusco]

If it's $50K over sticker I won't agree with your perspective. Maybe the guy's a creap--I don't know. Maybe he's just a wise seller--realizing it's a seller's market and taking advantage--sounds like the epitome of a free-market economy to me.

If there's someone out there willing to pay, then how can we consider the person willing to sell as being bad. There's noone holding a gun to anyone's head to buy a Prius. If this guy was selling the last dose of Atropine after a huge Sarin Gas exposure and that vial would save your dying momma and you didn't have the $10K to buy the vial and save her then yes, the guy's a creap--that's life and death. The Prius is a product--one can choose to buy it or not, sell it or not, for a high price or a low price. As long as all involved parties are happy who are you, or me or anyone to complain?
--evan

 

[TBangs]

Evans Right

Whatever the market will bear, the free interprise system is at work and what keeps us number 1 in the world. It makes me wonder what kind of thinking someone has to do to pass judgement on others becaues they don't like or agree with something. Get a life DUI. Hey if the guy has a $75,000 reserve set so what it's none of anyones business. If I was to guess I would say you are probably a liberal.

 

[efusco]

Tom,
Was it really necessary for your response to be so hostile? I've tried to get my point across with logic and reasoned arguments. People have lots of different points of view. And so what if he's a liberal? I am. I'd imagine you'd find a large percentage of Prius owners are liberals. If you were better informed on the subject you'd realize that being a liberal or conservative doesn't mean one can't consider and review and accept other points of view without completely changing their basic beliefs.

FWIW: I'm a pro-gun, anti-ANWR, pro-free market, anti-socialist liberal. Go figure.
--evan

 

[jefff12]

Reserve...

Now, one of us adventursome types might want to bid $36k to see if the "reserve is met" and then, of course, quickly retract our bid... just out of curiosity. Hmm....

The Car-of-the-Year trophy certainly ups the price. Just like an Oscar.

 

[moocatdog]

Re: Evans Right

Whatever the market will bear, the free interprise system is at work and what keeps us number 1 in the world. It makes me wonder what kind of thinking someone has to do to pass judgement on others becaues they don't like or agree with something. Get a life DUI. Hey if the guy has a $75,000 reserve set so what it's none of anyones business. If I was to guess I would say you are probably a liberal.

TBangs,
It saddens me to see this kind of attitude displayed in this newsgroup. In my experience alt.autos.toyota is a more appropriate venue for the shouting of cliches from high atop one's soapbox. Such behavior at PriusOnline.org is extremely bad form.
Moo :-(

 

[leebek]

Dear Mr. Bangs:

Who is passing judgement now? Might I suggest that you try the Yahoo forum? There really is not much support for personal attack and hostility in this forum... At least we can soothe our hurt sensibilities with the consolation that freedom of speech is a cornerstone of our form of government. You have the right to rant and we have the right to judge you based on that airing...

 

[TBangs]

Hostility?

I don't see anything hostile about what I said. It wasn't meant to be hostile if I've offended anyone to bad. We all have a right to express ourselves. As far as liberal or conservative is concerned doesn't really matter to me I'm neither. It's just a liberal trait to know what's better for others. Remmember it is only my opinion not hostility.

 

[D U I]

Whoa, sorry for starting that volley that strayed WAY off course.
Every Xmas in this great land of ours, there's a Furby, Tickle Me Elmo, or PlayStation2 that changes hands in a win-win sale for double the retail price or more. I was simply amused by this 04 listed out of Dallas, and seeing how the Prius is typically purchased by well informed buyers I didn't think 'ol Tex would get any action past MSRP, I was wrong. Just didn't see the Prius as this years Cabbage Patch doll.

I ain't close to a liberal, just because I drive a Prius, don't draw conclusions. Here's a few fun facts regarding my views: I strongly support our actions in Iraq, the status quo was unthinkable. We are in the sixth crusade, check your history. I am afraid our ex-first lady Ms HRC will ride in on her broom in the first quarter of 04 to bale out the dying Dem party. I voted for Arnold for governor.
BTW this isn't my only car, I jump in my Impreza (with $2000+ worth of mods) and burn fuel like no tomorrow.

 

[efusco]

Tom,
To me it was both the "Get a life" comment and the unnecessary labeling of the individual's political leanings "liberal" (which turned out to be dead wrong) which I construed as hostile. Perhaps that word is too strong, but I hope you can appreciate that direct personal attacks such as that are both unnecessary and unwanted on this board. My views on the topic were diametrically opposite his too, if you notice...and I think I got my point across without attacking. Is that too much to ask of you?
--evan

 

[patrickg]

A N D before cooler heads have time to prevail, I'd like to try to put the fire out with gasoline!

Evan... What kind of liberal are you anyway? I thought I was so right wing that I thought Attila the Hun was a bleeding heart liberal yet I agree with so much of what you say.

What we don't need is an ad hominem, an argument "to the man", instead, disagree with someone's statements and if able clearly state the reason for your disagreement. What matters is what is said not who says it.

Sure, wink wink, WE know that PRII are the latest Cabage Patch Doll for the liberal tree hugging pinko swine (note: I didn't mention anything about limp wrists as I wanted to keep this real high minded) but there ain't no law against my running my trap line in a Prius (maybe the law of gravity) and except for those femmy tires I'd use stealth mode to sneak up on critters and turn them into freeway pizza.

(Please don't flame me, I was only trying to inject a little levity into my otherwise dry and profesorial scholarly commentary. Well, at least allow me to slip into my Kevlar and Nomex underware, the lacy pink ones.)

Pat

Voting for AHNULD?? Ahnuld sleeps with the enemy and is just barely a Republican and not particualry conservative.

 

[efusco]

Shhhhhhhh! I am in disquise!!!
--evan
Conservative Liberal with Independent leanings tempered by a Green Party mentality. I wanna carry my 12 Guage while hunting bambi, while saving the whales but smoking pot to keep my cool all the while paying for it all from the public dole!! :twisted:

 

[moocatdog]

The topic of this thread started out as the ethics of price gouging. It may not be illegal to auction off a Prius on EBay for $10,000 more than you paid for the car, but I think it is certainly distasteful. I also believe it is ludicrous to inject American political vitriol and/or nationalist bravado into an international forum dedicated to the discussion of a Japanese car.
Moo

 

[patrickg]

Ah, Evan et al, another country heard from, the Purity of Topic Police!

I'm just a bit troubled with the concept of price gouging in what is sort of a situation where actions are relatively free and many alternatives exist.

If we were discussing the price (and this may sound vaguely familiar) of some substance required for life, say salt, which is used as a classical example of innelastic demand by econ 101 profs then I'd have to agree regarding the charge of price gouging provided the seller in question had the only Prius for sale. That criterion not met, I can't.

Provided there are plenty of tickets to go around (perhaps well in advance of an event the popularity of which perhaps increases significantly subsequent to the availability of tickets sharpely declining) then if a ticket holder chooses to auction off his/her ticket at a price well in excess of his purchase price, then is this a despicable low act?

If a 10 year old boy catches the baseball of the winning homer of the world series and gets it autographed by the batter (this idiom is understood in Japan!) and subsequently sells it for a price well above the cost of even a new league play baseball, is he a cur or perhaps just exercising his perogatives within our society.

Surely, buying a legal product in a legal manner and then offering it to the highest bidder is legal where it was done (accomodating international realities). This leaves a couple potential bases on which to complain: 1. on moral grounds, 2. because someone isn't doing what some party personally wants them to do.

Lets investigate the morality... If the seller had done something sneaky or underhanded to "corner" the Prius market then we might jump on the "burn him, burn the witch" bandwagon. I think from the post I read there are no facts in evidence that the seller did anything but sign up and buy a Prius. Maybe some folks are just too "sensitive" to anyone having the audacity to invest their time and money in a way to turn a potential profit.

If the seller had a bro-in-law funneling Prii to him to sell on this "GREY" market and the legitimate folks who were signed up at THAT dealership were missing out on their buying opportunity, then again, I'd fault the seller B U T no facts of this sort are in evidence.

At most border crossings between Mexico and the US there are young Mexican children selling Chicklets and the like at prices inflated above "store" prices. Is this moral decay or free enterprise capitalism? It is $ for convenience, just as the eBay auction is.

In the case of the eBay Prius auction, who is harmed? If a buyer wants to pay $ to save time, a pretty standard tradeoff practice, who is harmed. Who is the victim?

I am certainly willing to listen to any logical argument that can make a case against buying and reselling legal goods at a profit.

Look at the ripoff prices of popcorn in the movies! Way above what it might sell for next door from a deli. Should we barricade the streets and take up pitchforks against the injustice of expensive popcorn in movies. Well, probably Y E S BECAUSE there is no available competition in the selling of popcorn in the movies. It is an artificially controlled environment with trade restrictions and is clearly price gouging.

In the case of the eBay Prius there are no such restrictions imposed by the seller. If someone has a beef with anyone over this Prius auction, they should take it up with Toyota for severely underproducing Prii.

I try to keep an open mind but just can't seem to fathom a legitimate basis for castigating the seller. Let us see... what motivations are left for complaining aout the seller's actions? Jealousy, for not having thought of it a lot sooner and been there first? Probably not in this case but I listed this case for the sake of completeness. OK, what is left? Correct me if I have missed any obviously good reasons but all I see that is left is some sort of variation on the theme of, " I don't like it, so it is wrong!" This sort of whimsical denigration in the absence of supportable facts has been the source of much mischief! (See Salem, trials, witch) It takes a better rationale than "just because" to make a case against a legal act. Sure there are examples a plenty of legal acts that were morally reprehensible but there is always a victim who likely would have prefered to not have been done unto. Who but an uninvolved third party onlooker, who chooses to cry foul, is harmed. Is the onlooker harmed or doth he protest over much? (Sorry Bill S.)

Who is the victim? Is society victimized? Is buying and reselling at profit somehow foreign to our society and likely to initiate grievous moral decay?

Hopefully this ON THE TOPIC post will atone for my earlier sin of trying to use humor to defuse a disquieting awkward moment when emotions were apparently interferring or about to interfere with manners.

Again, I'm inviting moral instruction from anyone who can make a logical argument against buying and selling legally. If this were in fact, a Cabbage Patch Doll, would anyone have ripped the seller? (I might have made fun of or impuned the intellect of the buyer!) If not then why so in the case of the Prius? Have Prii achieved some cult religious status among certain of our numbers? Are there any formally pre or proscribed rituals we should know about to prevent giving the appearance of not properly observing religious tollerance and speaking freely on a taboo topic?

Respectfully,

Pat

 

[efusco]

Ok, I'm getting confused, I thought I responded to your levity with my own levity, but now I'm not sure if my levity was construed as serious, or what. Now you respond with this intelligent well reasoned **** that blows away all hope of levity every entering the universe again. I need some Tylenol....
--evan

 

[moocatdog]

Ok, I'm getting confused, I thought I responded to your levity with my own levity, but now I'm not sure if my levity was construed as serious, or what. Now you respond with this intelligent well reasoned sh** that blows away all hope of levity every entering the universe again. I need some Tylenol....
--evan

Evan,
Don't worry. If I'm not mistaken, Patrick's tall tale is aimed my direction. Apparently my desire to help PriusOnline.com remain free of the obnoxious name calling and xenophobia that is running roughshod over the rest of the Internet smacks of (gasp!) political correctness. Following are my two posts to this thread, including the comments which prompted my response:

TBangs wrote (sic):

Whatever the market will bear, the free interprise system is at work and what keeps us number 1 in the world. It makes me wonder what kind of thinking someone has to do to pass judgement on others becaues they don't like or agree with something. Get a life DUI. Hey if the guy has a $75,000 reserve set so what it's none of anyones business. If I was to guess I would say you are probably a liberal.

I replied:

It saddens me to see this kind of attitude displayed in this newsgroup. In my experience alt.autos.toyota is a more appropriate venue for the shouting of cliches from high atop one's soapbox. Such behavior at PriusOnline.org is extremely bad form.

TBangs then wrote (sic):

I don't see anything hostile about what I said. It wasn't meant to be hostile if I've offended anyone to bad. We all have a right to express ourselves. As far as liberal or conservative is concerned doesn't really matter to me I'm neither. It's just a liberal trait to know what's better for others. Remmember it is only my opinion not hostility.

I then responded:

The topic of this thread started out as the ethics of price gouging. It may not be illegal to auction off a Prius on EBay for $10,000 more than you paid for the car, but I think it is certainly distasteful. I also believe it is ludicrous to inject American political vitriol and/or nationalist bravado into an international forum dedicated to the discussion of a Japanese car.

I think my responses clearly stated my opinions regarding this thread, without being rude. I applaud the inclusion of levity in this forum and welcome any posting that is worded politely--even if I disagree with the writer's position.

Moo

 

[jefff12]

reserve not met

After much ado about nothing, the reserve was not met (top bid came in just over $32k) and the auction was ended. Perhaps the seller thinks he can get more for it elsewhere, or maybe he made a private deal via e-mail. Either way, it's really none of our business.

On a final note, nobody complains when a buyer pays $250 for a $30 NBA playoff ticket on E-Bay or when a free souvenir from a baseball game is auctioned off for $25. Something is worth only as much as somebody is willing to pay.

As a Prius owner, it's flattering to know that people out there are willing to pay more than $7k over MSRP for the car I waited patiently to buy at sticker price.

 

[mrv]

The topic of this thread started out as the ethics of price gouging. It may not be illegal to auction off a Prius on EBay for $10,000 more than you paid for the car, but I think it is certainly distasteful. I also believe it is ludicrous to inject American political vitriol and/or nationalist bravado into an international forum dedicated to the discussion of a Japanese car.
Moo

but is it really $10,000 more than
the person paid for the car? What
if the person is also trying to
recoup the costs associated with
his state's and/or locality's sales
tax, and also the title and licensing
fees, and excise taxes? and what
about the person's time involved
in getting the car, and preparing it
for the auction?

and let's not forget, eBay motors
has to have their share of the selling
price, as well...

Personally, I feel that up to about
$5000 over MSRP for a private sale
might be OK for a loaded BC 2004,
but much more than that is just
wishful thinking...

(and, depending on how you read IRS Pub. 535,
neither of the parties would qualify
for the federal tax deduction!)