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post #1 of 13 (permalink) Old 01-07-2008, 06:35 PM Thread Starter
 
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Default Toyota on GM's 2 Mode Hybrid system.

Well, Toyota has to come up with the Heavy Duty-Use HSD system soon. Or we're going to be in a tough selling competion environment...
We have to sell and compete with the likes such as GM and its affiliate on the Full size SUV's and Trucks with better Fuel Economy......Than current Toyota's large platform vehicle lines such as: Sequoias, Tundras etc..

>Added L.A. Times GM Hybrid SUV polemics topic below at the bottom<


=General Motors Two-Mode Hybrid System.=

The GM Two-Mode Hybrid System is a full hybrid that can operate on gasoline-only, electric-only, or a
blend of gasoline and electric power. The Two-Mode system combines the following major components:
• A 332-horsepower 6.0-liter gasoline V8
• A 4-speed automatic transmission
• Two 60-kilowatt (kW) electric motor/generators
• One 300-volt nickel-metal hydride battery pack
• A regenerative braking system
Understanding the “Two” Modes
To the average consumer, the name Two-Mode Hybrid System might refer to gasoline power and electric
power. However, the “Two” modes are actually more complex. Simply stated, the two modes are a lowspeed
and a high-speed variable gear ratio arrangement in the transmission. The two modes can both
employ gas and electric power.

Mode One>
GM calls the low-speed arrangement “input split,” meaning the gas engine’s power is split between
mechanical and electric drive power, which together create variable transmission ratios via a
planetary gearset. The vehicle starts out in this mode.

Mode Two>
GM calls the high-speed arrangement “compound split,” which is similar to “input split” but uses a
second planetary gearset to apply continuously variable combinations of gas and electric drive power
at higher road speeds.

The system essentially operates like two Hybrid Synergy Drive transmissions: One continuously variable
gearset is used for low-speed driving, with another continuously variable gearset for high-speed driving.
As such, there are twice as many gearsets.
General MotorsTwo-Mode Hybrid System

A Unique Automatic Transmission
The key to GM’s Two-Mode Hybrid System is the vehicle’s new Electrically Variable Transmission (EVT).
Like a traditional automatic, this transmission uses planetary gearsets coupled with internal clutches. The
difference is that within the transmission case are two 60kW electric motor/generators. These
motor/generators provide three critical functions for the system.

1. They help accelerate the vehicle
The motor/generators can power the vehicle with no help from the gasoline engine (electric
power), they can power the vehicle in combination with the gasoline engine (electric and
mechanical), or they can assist the gasoline engine to provide additional power for acceleration,
hill climbing, and towing (mechanical with electric assist). In addition, the first motor/generator is
the gas engine starter.

2. They recharge the batteries
The motor/generators create electricity for the battery. When running, the gasoline engine can
drive one motor/generator for recharging as necessary. During braking and coasting, both
motor/generators can be used to slow the vehicle, converting the motion of the SUV into electrical
current that helps recharge the battery.

3. They provide variable gear ratios
Under light driving loads, the two electric motors work together to vary the gear ratio between the
gasoline engine and drive wheels. During high loads, like acceleration and towing, the
transmission can revert to its four fixed gear ratios. With fixed ratios, the engine delivers
mechanical power straight to the drive wheels. Even when operating in fixed gear ratios, the
motor/generators can still contribute electric assist for additional power when accelerating.

A Highly Modified V8 Engine
In addition to its complicated transmission, the 6.0-liter V8 also uses numerous additional technologies to
help it consume less fuel.

• Active Fuel Management (AFM). This allows the engine to switch from 8- to 4-cylinder operation
when cruising. Four cylinders shut down.
• Late Intake Valve Closing (LIVC). Also called an Atkinson cycle engine. This technology reduces
resistance against the pistons during the compression stroke to improve efficiency. Some power
and torque is sacrificed for fuel economy.
• Variable Valve Timing (VVT). This is a limited VVT system that can’t adjust the intake and
exhaust valve timing independently. In GM’s engine, one cam can’t accomplish both jobs.
• Auto Stop mode. The engine automatically turns off when the vehicle reaches 0 mph. The engine
is restarted by the first motor/generator when engine power is needed.

The Pros and Cons>

Customers and cross-shoppers will want to know the pros and cons of the new GM Two-Mode Hybrid
System, so the following points will be very important to understand.

The Pros>
• Tahoe and Yukon will be the first full-size SUVs offered with hybrid drive, making them unique
vehicles.
• 2WD models have EPA estimated fuel economy ratings of 21 mpg in the city and 22 on the
highway. This compares to 14/20 mpg for a comparable 5.3-liter non-hybrid model.
General MotorsTwo-Mode Hybrid System

• 4WD models have EPA estimated fuel economy ratings of 20 mpg in the city and 20 mpg on the
highway. This compares to 14/19 mpg for a comparable 5.3-liter non-hybrid model.
• Tahoe and Yukon can carry up to eight passengers or 1,560 lbs. of cargo.
• Tahoe and Yukon can pull from 6,000 lbs. (4WD) to 6,200 lbs. (2WD), though this is anywhere
from 200 to 1,300 pounds less than a 2WD 5.3-liter V8 Tahoe.

The Cons>
• The hybrid Tahoe and Yukon will only be available in limited markets, which may also mean
limited dealer service support.
• The GM Two-Mode Hybrid System is complicated, with a complex engine, transmission control
system.
• The transmission has four clutch packs that can and will wear out over the lifetime of the vehicle.
By comparison, Toyota’s Hybrid Synergy Drive® (HSD®) has no clutches.
• To save weight, GM had to use expensive and potentially expensive-to-repair aluminum hood
and cargo door panels.
• GM had to eliminate the opening rear cargo door window to save weight.
• GM had to eliminate the spare tire and jack to save weight, yet the vehicles do not use run-flat
tires.
• GM eliminated the roof rack and made many expensive body modifications to help reduce wind
resistance.
• Model-specific body panels are not interchangeable with non-hybrids.
• The Two-Mode system was developed via a complicated arrangement between GM, Allison
transmission, Chrysler and BMW.

What You Really Need To Know
GM should be applauded for developing environmentally sensitive technology. However, Toyota already
has over 1,000,000 hybrid vehicles on the road worldwide. Yes, that’s one million! This number speaks to
Toyota’s environmental commitment, and it demonstrates a track record that for the foreseeable future
simply can’t be beat by any other company.
Further, Toyota’s Hybrid Synergy Drive® (HSD®) is elegant in its simplicity, with many benefits:
• There is no traditional transmission or clutches, which reduces complexity.
• The gas engines do not need extra engineering to shut down cylinders.
• HSD® can be engineered for a wide range of economy and performance needs, as Prius, Camry
Hybrid and Highlander Hybrid demonstrate.
• HSD® is Toyota’s proprietary technology. This is an in-house design and Toyota has full
engineering control, which means world-class quality control.
• Finally, HSD® vehicles are available nationwide, and all Toyota and Lexus dealers are trained to
service and repair the vehicles.
By comparison, the GM system is highly complex, and the engineering contribution of four different
companies made for an involved development process. GM and Allison Transmission developed an
earlier version of this technology for large diesel busses, where it has served successfully for several
years.

However, GM, Chrysler, BMW and Allison Transmission had to “shrink” the engineering to fit into personal
vehicles, while also adding a conventional 4-speed truck transmission.
Also, a customer must wonder if a vehicle sold in limited markets will be welcome in the service bay of
Chevrolet and GM dealers across the nation.
General MotorsTwo-Mode Hybrid System

The Future of the GM System
Because the Two-Mode Hybrid System was developed in collaboration with Chrysler and BMW, this
technology will be used in a variety of vehicles, including:
• Chevrolet Silverado Hybrid pickup truck
• GMC Sierra Hybrid pickup truck
• Dodge Durango HEMI Hybrid SUV
• Chrysler Aspen HEMI Hybrid SUV
• And potentially the BMW X5 SUV
Toyota Hybrid Vehicles, To make the World a better place to live
for present and next generations to come.

Here is an intereting article from L.A. Times,
The whole story....
http://www.latimes.com/classified/autom ... iddleright

The Chevy Tahoe Hybrid is as provocative and political a vehicle as you'll see this year. Why, it's practically a polemic. And those are just the "P's."

By way of a fantastic exertion of technology and human capital -- which I hereby honor and praise even as I question them as misallocated -- GM has managed to give one of its behemoth SUVs marginally better fuel economy. Here are the relevant data points: The two-mode hybrid Tahoe returns an EPA estimated fuel economy of 21 miles per gallon in the city, 22 mpg highway; the 4x4 version gets an even 20/20, city/highway. The company and its various choristers -- such as the Green Car Journal, which recently named the Tahoe Hybrid "Green Car of the Year" -- are pleased to point out that represents up to a 50% improvement of in-city fuel economy over the non-hybrid Tahoe.
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post #2 of 13 (permalink) Old 01-07-2008, 08:43 PM
 
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Default Re: Toyota on GM's 2 Mode Hybrid system.

Fascinating.

It's amazing--necessity is the mother of invention. GM can't sell cars, they can sell only trucks (or so it seems)--so the NEEDED to give trucks better gas mileage. Necessity.

Now, I can only imagine that the HSD as it sits today is not suitable, or does not scale well, to trucks/vans. I say that because otherwise, it seems by now we'd see a Sienna with HSD. My guess is that the Highlander is pushing things for that particular system. As good as it is, it may not be a suitable platform onto which Toyota can build large vehicles. I'm thinking that they're looking to solve that problem, but may be stuck.

GM comes from the large vehicle world, so naturally they found a way to do it. Is it complex? Sure. More complex than HSD? Maybe, maybe not--in the end. Or maybe it's a good brute force way of solving the problem for now, while they investigate things that will be in production ten years from now.

And maybe Toyota never went the same direction because they're not looking at ugly, brute-force solutions.

Since I don't drive a GM truck, maybe I'm the wrong guy to say this--but only 20mpg? That's the BEST you guys could come up with?

OK, percentage wise, it's big. 14mpg to 20mpg in the city is huge as a percentage, but nothing when it comes to the pump. Maybe as a first gen, "hurry up" program it's OK. Let's hope they aren't cheering themselves just yet.

BTW, some of the "cons" are just Toyota marketing fluff. HSD is less complex? Well, yes--and no. Limited markets? Well, how about the fact that Toyota isn't even IN the hybrid truck market? See how Toyota managed some smoke and mirrors around THAT debacle? Shame on Toyota--after how many years of hybrid development, and still no heavy trucks at ALL? Let's go back to that 42% improvement in mileage that GM is showing on heavy trucks (from 14mpg to 20mpg). Toyota should hang its head in shame for not having ANYTHING to show.

Oh, yeah: "To save weight, GM had to use expensive and potentially expensive-to-repair aluminum hood and cargo door panels." As opposed to the Prius's potentially expensive to repair aluminum hood and roof? Hey, Toyota--people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. When you pull CRAP like that, you really look like a complete loser in my eyes. If you have to stoop so low as to pull crap like this, you should just go home with your tail between your legs.

"GM made expensive body mods to help reduce wind resistance." Christ on a crutch, Toyota made an ENTIRELY NEW BODY that's not shared by ANYTHING else in order to cut weight and reduce wind resistance. That wasn't expensive???

"the Two-Mode system was developed via a complicated arrangement between GM, Allison transmission, Chrysler and BMW." Pray tell, is it any more "complicated" than any business transaction Toyota enters into? Come on, you're now grasping at straws. Hey, Toyota--open your books and show us all your business transactions, and let us comment on them for you.

Losers.

Toyota is tasting sour grapes. They need to focus themselves, and quit slinging random mud that they actually scrape off of themselves first.
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Default Re: Toyota on GM's 2 Mode Hybrid system.

Seems to me that three years ago when GM, Ford, Chrysler, Mercedes, and BMW joined R&D depts to investigate hybrid development they asked them selves what kind of market does the American buyer want and they skipped the VW type vehicle for what the market was purchasing. 20 MPG may not be much but it is hybrid for those believing that is what they want to go, and a positive movement in the heavy pick-up market. I expect we will soon be seeing the same power offered in the true "minivan."



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Default Re: Toyota on GM's 2 Mode Hybrid system.

adam1991,

Agree on the HSD not beeing suitable for large platform vehicles. Current HSD concept is 10 years old.
The HSD was developed to be the "magic power" and to be used in smaller-lighter vehicles.

I'm very sure that the Gen III Toyota's HSD will have a broad application path. We will see. If Toyota want
to increase the fuel economy and emission and earn huge profit from the "cash cow" segment,
the large Truck derived products it is inmminent that the Game must get going. Toyota will come out
with a different technology Hybrid System than the "Alliance" current format.

Who knows, Where is Ford on this ? Toyota ? They do have a tie you know? I'm very sure that there will be
Gen III ( Heavy Duty )Hybrid system to keep the competion on even footings...
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Default Re: Toyota on GM's 2 Mode Hybrid system.

Hmm, well for starters I'd have to disagree that the HSD is unsuitable for "large platform" vehicles. The 600h is a 6000 lb vehicle, about the same as a Yukon. Yes, it doesn't have the "towing capacity" rating. I'll bet that is easily fixed, it's just that an uber luxury car doesn't tow!

The GM system doesn't save much fuel and I've heard it's very expensive so far. Talk about a "Hybrid Premium"! It is nice to see it on the market finally though. So kudos to GM for at least "trying". But just try to buy one! Bob is and is getting frustrated!

Thanks Ricky for posting some of the contents of what is obviously an internal sales document. Hope you don't get too much flack at work for that. If they say anything tell them that at least -I- find the info useful and would probably wait to see the "real" hybrid truck from Toyota before buying!

Vehicle:
Pearl is a 2007 Driftwood Pearl Prius
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Default Re: Toyota on GM's 2 Mode Hybrid system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Beale
Hmm, well for starters I'd have to disagree that the HSD is unsuitable for "large platform" vehicles. The 600h is a 6000 lb vehicle, about the same as a Yukon. Yes, it doesn't have the "towing capacity" rating. I'll bet that is easily fixed, it's just that an uber luxury car doesn't tow!

The GM system doesn't save much fuel and I've heard it's very expensive so far. Talk about a "Hybrid Premium"! It is nice to see it on the market finally though. So kudos to GM for at least "trying". But just try to buy one! Bob is and is getting frustrated!

Thanks Ricky for posting some of the contents of what is obviously an internal sales document. Hope you don't get too much flack at work for that. If they say anything tell them that at least -I- find the info useful and would probably wait to see the "real" hybrid truck from Toyota before buying!
David Beale,

Well, this info wasn't open for the "Public" as you have noticed. Toyota want us, Sales Releated dealer's stuffs to get ahold of this reality. I already know that many affluent large SUV or Truck buyers will come in to Toyota dealership with the fact that the Domestic will get slight better gas mileage. They will be asking: Let me see the Large Toyota SUV's and Trucks.
I'm hoping that Toyota is working hard on the Heavy-Duty use Gen III HSD...
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Default Re: Toyota on GM's 2 Mode Hybrid system.

The reason GM and others have ignored the small, fuel efficient vehicle is profit. They make big bucks on their trucks and SUVs, which are overpriced. GM is making the same mistakes it made in the 70s when they allowed foreign manufacturers to get their foot in the door in the US. They told the public what they were going to get, rather than giving the public what they wanted. Every time I see a Hummer commercial, I think, "You guys just don't get it."

The Japanese manufacturers have been listening to the public and are relatively fast to respond to what we want. Gas guzzlers are not the preferred vehicle today. What the public wants is a comfortable car with lots of gadgets that gets good MPG. The only way to get those gadgets in a US car was/is to buy BIG.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by firepa63
The reason GM and others have ignored the small, fuel efficient vehicle is profit. They make big bucks on their trucks and SUVs, which are overpriced. GM is making the same mistakes it made in the 70s when they allowed foreign manufacturers to get their foot in the door in the US. They told the public what they were going to get, rather than giving the public what they wanted. Every time I see a Hummer commercial, I think, "You guys just don't get it."

The Japanese manufacturers have been listening to the public and are relatively fast to respond to what we want. Gas guzzlers are not the preferred vehicle today. What the public wants is a comfortable car with lots of gadgets that gets good MPG. The only way to get those gadgets in a US car was/is to buy BIG.
firepa63,

Agree with you. However, the record shows that America is consuming in vast number, The best sold cars are not cars, but the SUV and Trucks. over 60 % are the Trucks! and you are right again, 'cause GM, FORD, CAHRYSLER makes, ready for this,
$10.000 per copy! vs= they lose money in everything else they produce! So everybody wants a piece of this large pie. Including Toyota.
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Default Re: Toyota on GM's 2 Mode Hybrid system.

Rickey, check your numbers in a couple of months. Trucks and SUVs are a thing of the past when it comes to quantity buying. From all of the information I've read, the numbers for these gas guzzlers (across the industry) are way down. The industry is trying to make the customer happy with cross-overs. I'm not sure that is going to work either, unless they can make them very fuel efficient.
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Default Re: Toyota on GM's 2 Mode Hybrid system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by firepa63
Rickey, check your numbers in a couple of months. Trucks and SUVs are a thing of the past when it comes to quantity buying. From all of the information I've read, the numbers for these gas guzzlers (across the industry) are way down. The industry is trying to make the customer happy with cross-overs. I'm not sure that is going to work either, unless they can make them very fuel efficient.
firepa63 , got it.

But the fact is, still, the Big "Three" needs the Big trucks and SUV's for their bottom line finacial statement.
Toyota does make money across the entire line and the Prius alone sold over 1 million vehicles since its inception.
Then some, but the Big Truck and SUV's market is very _Lucrative_ for Toyota as well !

GM's 2 way Hybrid is a plus for them, from 12 mpg to 20 mpg is quite a jump though. I think...
I see that many people still going to be looking at the GM's Hybrid large vehicle, just 'cause of 20 mpg..
Ours gets only, 14 to 17 mpg.... Toyota will need, the efficient GEN III HSD for Heavy Duty application.
The magic "Buzz word" is _Over_ 20 MPG !
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