Toyota is launching the next generation Hybrid Battery ! - Page 2 - Toyota Prius Forum : Prius Online Toyota Forums
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post #11 of 30 (permalink) Old 12-03-2006, 07:23 PM Thread Starter
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Default Re: Toyota is launching the next generation Hybrid Battery !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceriman
Quote:
Originally Posted by C.Rickey Hirose
The upcoming big Hybrid sedan from Toyota's Lexus line, will implement the : Nickel Metal ho2? ( Hydrogen ) ? Battery !

Toyota claims more energy density per given mass than the current battery compound and system technology used in the Hybrid lines, of_Toyota/Lexus !

More on this as soon as I can decipher the murky posting from Toyota Japan's upcoming technology to be used in the now, present / future of Toyota and Lexus Hybrid vehicles.
Nickle Metal Hydride batteries have inside a metal alloy that absorbs hydrogen, forming a "Metal Hydride", so you might say hydrogen is involved - but there should not be any free hydrogen! There have been some minor improvements in NiMH batteries, however, it looks like the future is with lithium batteries.

Lithium is much more abundant and cheaper than nickel, and lithium batteries store 80 to 140 wh per kg, vs. 60 wh/kg for NiMH. Production costs and safety have been the main barriers to automotive use of lithium, but there have been major improvements in safety, and production is improving driving down costs.

Lithium Sulfur batteries, almost ready for market, store approx. 340 wh/kg. Experimental lithium air cells have exceeded 1,000 wh/kg and may reach 3,000 wh/kg!
Ok, so there are: so many presently available High density watt hour per giving weight. Manganese Sulfur,Hydrogen, nickel,Lithium and so on, but Toyota is, soo conservative to deploy this available Technology now.

I remember back in the mid 90's, when Toyota felt the need and anguish for beeing kicked out of the U.S. " Super Car Project " participation, they had to comeout with a radically new approach to harness the best engineering in order to come up with a 100% plus in fuel economy obtainable vehicle. From comparison of then Toyota vehicles CAFE

The Engineers were told to work using exsisting technology from Toyota power train arsenals but the 100% plus efficiency gain were impossible.

Mr, Oku. Then president of TMS arraigned all the _Super High Economy_ car project team and told them, Let not waste time trying to fine tune the
exsting ICE, let move to something more radical and let take a chance !

Toyota is not a corporation historically to take chance ! but they did it.
The team were given less than a year to come out with next generation radically different and efficient power train !

So if they can come out with the THS and move on to HSD why not take a chance with the Lithium ? Time will tell....

Toyota Hybrid Vehicles, To make the World a better place to live
for present and next generations to come.

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(925) 699-6450
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post #12 of 30 (permalink) Old 12-03-2006, 11:48 PM
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There's more to consider than WHr/Kg. There's peak power, life expectancy, cost of manufacture, and physical volume/WHr.
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post #13 of 30 (permalink) Old 02-08-2007, 09:45 PM
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Nickel Hydrogen batteries have been around much longer than NiMH batteries. They're being used on the space station as we speak. How do I know? I worked on them. I can imagine they've improved them. They have a lot in common with fuel cells. The old NiH batteries could do 44K full cycles before they gave out mechanically. They also have almost no internal resistance.

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post #14 of 30 (permalink) Old 03-05-2007, 03:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drash
Nickel Hydrogen batteries have been around much longer than NiMH batteries. They're being used on the space station as we speak. How do I know? I worked on them. I can imagine they've improved them. They have a lot in common with fuel cells. The old NiH batteries could do 44K full cycles before they gave out mechanically. They also have almost no internal resistance.
Toyota .......... and other have already produced Lithium Ion Batteries that power vehicle ......... Check it out.........

The emergence and adoption of advanced lithium batteries could shake up the auto industry. To better understand the changes ahead, several auto companies, including Subaru, Nissan, and Mitsubishi, have produced concept cars that use lithium batteries. Toyota became the first to use lithium ion batteries in a production vehicle when it placed a four-cell lithium pack in its Vitz CVT4, a Scion-looking small boxy vehicle only available in Japan. The Vitz's battery pack powers the lights, heater, air conditioner, and radio while the car is stopped, allowing the gasoline engine to shut off.


By far, the boldest vision of the lithium future is the Volvo 3CC concept car. Unveiled in 2004, the all-electric vehicle relies exclusively on 3,000 lithium ion cells, each one approximately the size of a common "AA" battery, to provide the equivalent of 105 horsepower with absolutely zero emissions. "We were forced by the current marketplace to use the small format batteries. If we could have done it with less than 3,000 cells, it would have made my life a lot easier," said Ichiro Sugioka, science officer at Volvo's Monitoring and Concept Center in Camarillo, Calif.

LOOK out world VOLVO Hybrid!!!!!

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post #15 of 30 (permalink) Old 03-26-2007, 11:12 PM
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I understand that there are "miracle" batteries that everybody points to and then references. And these new LiIon batteries don't have the runaway thermal problems that have plauged earlier LiIon batteries. However, guess what. Nobody is using them. Particularly since laptop makers would be the first ones to incorporate new technology since they can manufacture smaller batteries and get economies of scale. They aren't being used because not one laptop maker is using these newer batteries, even though their liability insurance would probably go down and they would no longer be the brunt of so many jokes about making men sterile or burning down houses.
There's usually a reason why they aren't being used and it could be as simple as manufacturability. They might be able to make them, just not a lot of them reliably or consistently. Or they might be very expensive to make or the parts are hard to find, etc., etc..
Currently there are only 4 types of batteries that have been manufactured on a large scale for large projects (cars, planes, heavy equipment, space) and they are lead-acid, NiCd (nickle cadmium), NiMH (nickle metal hydride), NiH (nickle hydrogen). Everything else is experimental or produced in trial size versions.

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post #16 of 30 (permalink) Old 03-27-2007, 10:59 AM
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Absolutely Correct. They can Pop out a new and Improved battery to run a Train ............. Bottom line is .......... $$$$$$$$$!!!!!!! It is "not cost effective" yet ..... until Motorola or someone else can Pop out a LiIon Battery that doesn't cost $15,000.00 to produce Nickle Metal Hydrid is what works best......... How about a Little Government assistance on that one!!!!! What about it Congress and the Senate????? Cut out some of those contributions from the Big 3 .............

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post #17 of 30 (permalink) Old 03-27-2007, 12:07 PM
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I have not read one word about Ford manufacturing a hybrid version of the "Edge." (my selection for this years best SUV.) However in todays business section of the Boston Globe is a picture of George Bush "plugging in" a 110 volt extension cord into a socket in the Edge Hybrid!
There is an excellent article that can be "googled." Car is Lithium battery powered along with a hydrogen fuel cell and weighs 1,000 lbs heavier tha std "Edge."
Still a concept car that will run on batteries alone for the first 25 miles and then goes on fuel cell for next 200 miles. For a hundred miles driving averages 41 MPG. For fifty miles a day car will get 80MPG.
(Oops, I know, there is another thread for this!)



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post #18 of 30 (permalink) Old 03-28-2007, 05:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TWQ83
They can Pop out a new and Improved battery to run a Train ............. Bottom line is ......It is "not cost effective" yet
The Japanese already use Lithium-ion batteries in hybrid trains as braking energy recovery / series hybrid operation.

LiIon is also already cheaper than NiMH per kWh storage (largely because nickel is in such demand for the stainless steel industry).

Remember the next Prius will be LiIon. Part of the reason for the switch is because NiMH is just too expensive now.

The reason the new LiIon chemistries are not used in laptops is because energy density is the only thing that matters for laptops and other portables, the newer chemistries currently have lower outright energy density than the older cobalt style flammable batteries.
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post #19 of 30 (permalink) Old 03-29-2007, 05:40 PM
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Well we could adopt the Japanese style of getting gov't assistant where they tell the gov't that the technology they are developing is important to national security. But we all know how corrupt the Japanese Gov't is or has been with nearly constant accusations about favoritism in the Japanese Gov' officials.

Of course one could argue we have our own ugly step sister here. But accusations and inuendos aside. Didn't Pres. Bush start us off on our 21st century Manhattan project that calls for advanced fuel cell development?

Yep. And what have do we to show for it? Another boondoggle that calls for pie-in-the-sky research that bleeds off into other items. The biggest winners - battery manufacturers. Why? because almost all the technology being researched applies to batteries. But unfortunately there almost no major battery manufacturers here that can handle the huge numbers the auto manufacturers need. Sad.

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post #20 of 30 (permalink) Old 03-29-2007, 06:02 PM
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I'm not saying it can't be fixed. But really there is no Gov't agency like we had in the past which the President directed to "fly me to the moon". Boy was that a fun ride but it did galvanize an entire scientific infrastructure toward a common goal. Could it be done today? Sure look at what DARPA is doing with autonomous vehicles.

If the President were serious about making a battery technology a national priority he could very well direct one of these agencies with that task. The problem here is they don't realize just how important this really is, so we'll have to wait for the Gov't of Japan to fund this research via grants to Toyota. Sorry if this isn't the answer you are looking for.

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