PriusOnline.com

[quote="cwerdnaTheir gasoline engine reliability is fairly poor so I don't see why their diesels should be much better..[/quote]

I just noticed that you condemned VW diesels based upon CR's reliability rating of gasoline engined VWs...

Do you not find that statement to be misleading?

Did CR even comment on any diesel?

If you subscribe, perhaps you can verify whether the VW diesel scores as low as they scored the VW gasoline variants.

I had a diesel Jetta in 1982, and it was 'bulletproof'. I know it was 'dirty' compared to modern cars like the Jetta; gee, even modern diesel trucks are cleaner than gasoline cars of the 1980s!

But I digress. I am not a CR subscriber, so I can't look up what they may have written about VW TDIs. I do know several people have them and are happy; some even burn 100% bio-fuel with no ill effects (again, I am only speaking from my experience with 1982 diesel and what others tell me. I do not know how they perform vis-a-vis air polution. I know that California has effectively banned them until the new ULSD fuel is available.

Walt (see a lot of VW TDIs in the Peoples' Republik of Kawlifornia)

Again, even 100% bio-fuel pollutes a lot of NOx and PM which shows the ill effects.

Ken@Japan

[quote="ken1784[/quote]
Again, even 100% bio-fuel pollutes a lot of NOx and PM which shows the ill effects.

Ken@Japan[/quote]

We may not care if that is all we have to use for power...

They did not break out reliability separately by whether a car was diesel or not very likely due to insufficient sample size (or there being no significant difference). VW doesn't sell that many cars in the US and the subset of that which is diesel makes the set even smaller.

However, even if you exclude the engines and fuel systems on all of them, I see these spots where many/all of their models have done poorly: ignition, electrical, exhaust, paint/trim [except on the Passat], body integrity [Passat wasn't as bad], power equipment and body hardware.

Jonnycat26's sample size was 1 Prius and 1 Jetta. The Prius has had well above average reliability for EVERY model sold here in the US. The Prius and HCH were found to be the most reliable 2005 model year car w/4% of people reporting a serious problem.

Virually every Toyota and Lexus has above average to well above average reliability for every model year. The worst is average for only a few models years of a few models. That same CANNOT be said for VW. I see no reason to believe that somehow diesel VWs are miraculously more reliable than all their other vehicles in the above areas.

Another data point, although I don't trust JD Power very much, you can see that in their 3 year "long term" (not long enough) study at http://www.jdpower.com/news/releases/pr ... ID=2005089, they're 4th from bottom and well below average. Here are prior year's versions of the study:
http://www.jdpa.com/news/releases/press ... ID=2004055
http://www.jdpa.com/news/releases/press ... ID=2003050
http://www.jdpa.com/news/releases/press ... ID=2002141
http://www.jdpa.com/news/releases/press ... sp?ID=2074

VW's have safety recalls too just like every other manufacturer. You can look them up at http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/probl ... search.cfm.

Interesting.

My VW ownership is limited to a 1961 Beetle (bought used), the aforementioned 1982 Jetta diesel, and lastly, a 2000 New Beetle 1.8T.

I guess I could also include the 1986 Porsche 944 and the 1987 944S as being VW+Audi derivatives, and the 1980 911SC as a Beetle on steroids;-)

Other than having the cooling system replaced under warranty and before catastrophe (944), I suffered no problems with any of them, although I do recall that all the Porsches were denigrated by CR and JD Power surveys.


Guess I just got lucky

We all, including our children and posterity, do care.
This is not your own globe.

Ken@Japan

eH,

What I could have said was, giving technology time, I am certain that a way can be found to overcome the NOx and PM (which I trust you mean to be abbreviation for Particulate Matter and not some other phenomena).

In any case, the SUBJECT of this particular thread is VW TDIs.

Besides, as any dental patient will attest, what is wrong with a little NOx?

Actually, diesel fuel is about to get much less dirty, at least for the U.S. The EPA has finally mandated that all diesel fuel must get rid of 97% of the sulfur. It is called Utlra-Low Sulfur Diesel (ULSD) and is to be phased in altogether by 2010. We will all breathe a little easier.

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/06 ... ulfur.html

If I recall correctly, European diesel is already low-sulfer, so VW and D-C are probably ahead of that game.

I looked at the article quoted, but did not notice any data for bio-diesel. Is sulfer the only evil that contributes to NOx?

I doubt it but I would think that sulfur might be the worst...if so, at least that's a big start

I don't think sulfur has anything to do with NOx unless it's a catalyst. NOx is caused by high temperature, high pressure combustion in a nitrogen rich atmosphere also containing oxygen. Our atmosphere that our cars breathe is mostly N2

sulfur generates H2SO4 which damages the catalyzer.

Ken@Japan

I think one has to be careful to separate "reliability issues" from "engineering". They are both important but it's hard to have a meaningful discussion if these two things are mashed together.

VW has some reliability issues. I think that one has to realize that the general reliability of all current cars is vastly improved over some years ago (like 20 years).

I suspect that we may be discussing differences between reliability numbers that are basically all very good.

I've had two VWs, a gasser since 1986 and a TDI since 1997, and, in my hands (anectotal evidence), the reliability has been very good (and the first one in 1986 was supposed to have been a "bad" one).

The current Jetta TDI is a different car than the Prius (not better). Either of them will tend to appeal to a different group of people. One thing that is common between these two groups is an interest in fuel efficiency. Both groups are also interested in the pollution issues (but the diesel does have a bit of a disadvantage over the Prius).

Why one might prefer the TDI over the Prius.

The TDI is a bit more of a "drivers" car than the Prius and will handle better. The Jetta may be more crash-worthy than the Prius. The diesel engine is "proven" technology. The difference in fuel efficiency between the two is less in highway driving. The TDI is unique and "alternative" like the Prius but in a much more "stealthy" (quiet) way than the Prius. The TDI will be more favorable to people who do their own car repairs.

Why one might prefer the Prius over the TDI.

The Prius is much more "enviro" than the diesel. The Prius makes a much more noticible "statement". The Prius will be much more efficient in stop-and-go traffic. The Prius is technologically cool.


In my opinion, they are both interesting (and good) cars and it's good that both are available.

Before buying my Prius, I also seriously considered the Jetta TDI and new Civic Hybrid. I really liked the Jetta but couldn't get over the recent reliability issues, and figured that this would also impact the resale value - a factor not mentioned so far. Also, a VW dealer told me that the TDI is being discontinued after the 2006 model year because of the polution issues and that might further reduce the resale value.

Nope, the resale value of the TDIs is astonishingly high even for old ones with lots of miles! The fact that the aren't going to be any (not exactly since they be able to still sell a few) in 2007 will also keep the value up.

VW would love to be able to sell them in the US. The problem is that availablity of the ULSD fuel that is required to meet the new emissions standards is hard to predict. This uncertainty means that VW would be foolish to deliver cars when there may not be the right fuel to put in them.

At present, it looks like the TDIs will be back in calendar year 2008 (probably as a 2009 model year). It's also possible that there will be a tax credit for the new ones then. (The return and tax credit might mean a drop in resale value.)