Prius Torque Curve Graph? - Toyota Prius Forum : Prius Online Toyota Forums
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#1 (permalink) Old 03-05-2004, 05:37 PM
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Default Prius Torque Curve Graph?

Does anyone have a torque/HP curve graph for the Prius? The Toyota site only give the electric motor torque up to 1200rpm and then the peak gas motor torque.

Any help would be appreciated.
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#2 (permalink) Old 03-05-2004, 08:50 PM
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http://john1701a.com/prius/presentat...ntation_48.htm

That link above might satisfy your need.
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#3 (permalink) Old 03-06-2004, 04:11 AM
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Sorry, John, but this is absolutely not was he/she was asking for : your curve represents acceleration versus time.

I've uploaded a scan of torque and power graphs in the technical section of the album
(in French, "couple" = torque, "puissance" = power, "vitesse" = speed) :

http://www.priusonline.com/album_pic.php?pic_id=14

You can also access to a big press document (French.pdf) including these graphs (p.106) in the Prius-France Yahoo group in the files section (and the same in German too) :

http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/PRIUS-FRANCE/files

You'll have to be a member, however.
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#4 (permalink) Old 03-07-2004, 08:02 PM
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Hi All:

___The first Prius torque curve looks a little odd? With the 01-03 Prius and Camry, there is a less then
infinite slope through any acceleration/deceleration as there should be. If the 04 Prius had a change in Gs over 0 seconds as shown (at t=0) I dont believe it can? There is no such thing as an instantaneous change in Gs in 0 seconds in an automobile? Maybe the graph is exaggerated by some amount? The third derivative gives jerk and with the change as shown, I would have to say the graph isnt possible even with a top fuel dragster. At least not without tearing the fillings out of your teeth any time you were to floor the Prius at exactly 30 mph

___Frenchie, do you know where to find a US speced Power (HP) and Torque (Ft.-lbs) for an 04 Prius can be located? The look of the graph wouldnt change but the numbers and nomenclature would make it easier for us in the States and much of Canada to understand.

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___[email:3ccrx2vj]Waynegerdes@earthlink.net[/email:3ccrx2vj]
 
#5 (permalink) Old 03-08-2004, 02:39 AM
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Hi Wayne,
Quote:
Originally Posted by xcel
___The first Prius torque curve looks a little odd? With the 01-03 Prius and Camry, there is a less then
infinite slope through any acceleration/deceleration as there should be. If the 04 Prius had a change in Gs over 0 seconds as shown (at t=0) I dont believe it can? There is no such thing as an instantaneous change in Gs in 0 seconds in an automobile? Maybe the graph is exaggerated by some amount? The third derivative gives jerk and with the change as shown, I would have to say the graph isnt possible even with a top fuel dragster. At least not without tearing the fillings out of your teeth any time you were to floor the Prius at exactly 30 mph

___Frenchie, do you know where to find a US speced Power (HP) and Torque (Ft.-lbs) for an 04 Prius can be located? The look of the graph wouldnt change but the numbers and nomenclature would make it easier for us in the States and much of Canada to understand.
I think nothing wrong with the graphs.
The first curve is by the Motor torque. It is well known behavior the max torque is produced at zero speed by a motor.
As you may know, unlike Insight, Prius can start and run without engine running.
The second graph is a popular engine curve, and the third is just the first one plus the second combined.

You can see the specifications of US models at...
http://www.toyota.com/vehicles/2004/prius/specs.html

The numbers are shown on the site, and it is easy to apply these on the graphs.

Regards,
Ken
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#6 (permalink) Old 03-09-2004, 03:37 AM
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Hi Ken1784:

___Frenchies graphs dont appear wrong, John1701as do? There is too great a change in Gs over to small a time frame at t=0 seconds to be a real G/time graph for most any automobile. Johns graph was not a HP/torque vs. Engine RPM but a Gs vs. time.

___I am still looking for a real world HP/Torque curve instead of those that Toyota provides for the Prius just in case a little fudging is going on Almost 300 Ft.-lbs of torque across that wide a band is a bit much and I am trying to find independent verification is all?

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___[email:3escu0v1]Waynegerdes@earthlink.net[/email:3escu0v1]
 
#7 (permalink) Old 03-09-2004, 04:46 PM
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Thanks for the info guys. It is still unclear to me that why, with the near instantaneous torque, does the Prius have such mediocre 0-60 acceleration? Is the battery discharge not powerful enough to power the electric motors beyond 1200RPM? Or is it that the rate of discharge is not long enough to keep the motors turning for the required time?

In either case it would seem to be an issue of not enough discharge. If that is the case can anyone tell me why Toyota didn't use a larger battery pack? It's quite compact and only weighs about 45kg.
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#8 (permalink) Old 03-09-2004, 05:45 PM
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Hi 1967 R50/2:

___I have been searching for a real world dyno run of the 01-03 and the 04 Prius for almost a week now and I cannot find anything? I think Toyota is fudging the numbers by saying the Electrics can assist up to 295 Ft.-lbs of torque anywhere in the range of 0 1,200 RPM the instant (t=0 again) they come on line. I also think they are taking the 295 Ft.-lbs. from the electric motors shaft instead of at the wheels like everybody else does. That torque value is simply way to high not to show some truly amazing performance numbers for something as light as the Prius imho.

___Frenchies curves seem to have been derived form a Toyota press release as well? Does anyone know where some real world HP/Torque curves are for either the 01-03 or the 04 Prius are?

___I found a paper done by Argonne (that or NREL or the Idaho government lab) that dyno tested the 01-03 Prius across a range of RPMs for emissions, SOC, and any other number of attributes except for pure HP and torque vs. RPM. The tables listed showed a maximum of just under 100 Ft.-lbs yet the 01-03 Prius torque value according to Toyota was a touch above 250 Ft.-lbs from 0 - 500 RPM?

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___[email:385a4ckq]Waynegerdes@earthlink.net[/email:385a4ckq]
 
#9 (permalink) Old 03-09-2004, 08:53 PM
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Quote:
I think Toyota is fudging the numbers by saying the Electrics can assist up to 295 Ft.-lbs of torque anywhere in the range of 0 1,200 RPM the instant (t=0 again) they come on line.
No. This is normal behaviour for an electric motor.
Quote:
I also think they are taking the 295 Ft.-lbs. from the electric motors shaft instead of at the wheels like everybody else does.
Wrong. Torque figures are usually given at the engine (or motor) shaft, because torque at the wheels depends on the gear... except in the Prius because there's only one gear (the Prius is so to speak always in "top gear").
Quote:
That torque value is simply way to high not to show some truly amazing performance numbers for something as light as the Prius imho.
Wrong again. Consider the different gear ratios, calculate the torque at the wheels and you'll see it's lower than on many cars in first gear.
Quote:
Frenchies curves seem to have been derived form a Toyota press release as well? Does anyone know where some real world HP/Torque curves are for either the 01-03 or the 04 Prius are?
This document (in French, German, English at least) can be found at toyota-media.com. It's a website for professional journalists, but you can subscribe for a 48h temporary access to all the files. I've downloaded some interesting documents on my hard drive, and could send them to PriusOnline but there's no place to put them...
Quote:
I found a paper done by Argonne (that or NREL or the Idaho government lab) that dyno tested the 01-03 Prius across a range of RPMs for emissions, SOC, and any other number of attributes except for pure HP and torque vs. RPM. The tables listed showed a maximum of just under 100 Ft.-lbs
I don't know which document you're referring to. I've seen some (about the old Japanese Prius) in which the engine was tested, and the peak torque was about 100 Nm, not 100 Ft-lb's (even in the USA is the metric system making some progress ).
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#10 (permalink) Old 03-09-2004, 09:45 PM
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Hi all,
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1967 R50/2
It is still unclear to me that why, with the near instantaneous torque, does the Prius have such mediocre 0-60 acceleration?
The huge torque lasts only up to 30km/h, please refer to the right graph by frenchie.
Beyond that, the torque is not so huge, then the result came.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1967 R50/2
Is the battery discharge not powerful enough to power the electric motors beyond 1200RPM? Or is it that the rate of discharge is not long enough to keep the motors turning for the required time?
The battery is powerful enough at least the first 10 seconds for 0-60.
It is programmed for efficiency, not for performance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1967 R50/2
In either case it would seem to be an issue of not enough discharge. If that is the case can anyone tell me why Toyota did use a larger battery pack? It's quite compact and only weighs about 45kg.
It look you need more performance than good mileage. Prius is a consumer product and is well balanced, I think. In other words, maybe someone is not happy it's performance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xcel
I think Toyota is fudging the numbers by saying the Electrics can assist up to 295 Ft.-lbs of torque anywhere in the range of 0 1,200 RPM the instant (t=0 again) they come on line.
The specification is officially published, and Toyota can't be fudging there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by xcel
I also think they are taking the 295 Ft.-lbs. from the electric motors shaft instead of at the wheels like everybody else does. That torque value is simply way to high not to show some truly amazing performance numbers for something as light as the Prius imho.
You may be right, gross vs net. However the 295 Ft.-lb is still real number.
Quote:
Originally Posted by xcel
___Frenchies curves seem to have been derived form a Toyota press release as well? Does anyone know where some real world HP/Torque curves are for either the 01-03 or the 04 Prius are?
Motor Performance Curve for both classic and '04.
http://www.toyota.co.jp/en/tech/environ ... /high.html

If you agree that the max torque is produced at zero speed by a motor, everything will be solved.
- A DC motor example;
http://lancet.mit.edu/motors/motors4.html
- There is a known formula; F = ma. The max torque causes max acceleration(G).
- The traction control is avoiding the wheel spin at start.
http://www.toyota.co.jp/en/tech/environ ... ystem.html

Regards,
Ken
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